[Hanoi5]

There's a topic in Suggestions for the Software (http://forums.bridge...showtopic=30228) where some ideas were being discussed about how to improve the forums.

The main concern appears to be that a lot of silly questions are being asked in the wrong forum and that there isn't a forum where only experts can discuss their matters. The Adv/Exp forum is 'designated for experienced and adept bridge players to discuss more advanced topics', yet some people ask questions that belong to the B/I forum or some people answer claiming to be experts in their answers or defending bad proposals/answers to death.

It's not a matter of separating players/forumers according to their level of play or rating, it's just a way of having things work the way they were meant to. Experts usually answer questions at the B/I forum and they are more than willing to help those who ask. In fact, having a look at an experts-only discussion is surely more helpful to those learning than having to read a bunch of different answers or approaches without having any idea of what is right or wrong, expert or intermediate.

The ideas in the poll were taken out of the mentioned topic as it was suggested that it would be a great idea to have the opinion of more people and in a poll. I'll try to explain some of the options:

- The first suggestion was to create an experts-only forum where they would be able to have the discussions of their level and all would benefit from reading such discussions.
- This might create the problem of where to ask the opinion of an expert, so it was also suggested that an 'Ask an expert' forum be created.
- It was also suggested that all people could write in this new forum but their posts would only appear after being approved by a (group of) moderator(s).
- I suggested to have a special board where an expert has the right to approve what is published and this expert is changed from time to time.
- It was suggested that a group of moderators move the topics where they belong.
- Several suggestions were made on how this 'experts-only' forum would work and then some 'little' changes were proposed (like adding a tag to topics or limiting the amount of posts per day or adding an ignore user function, etc)
- One of the last suggestions was to re-classify the boards according to their function, so we'd have an 'Ask an expert' forum and a 'Assign the blame' forum and the 'Experts only' forum, maybe 'What would you bid?' forum, etc. Of course all forums would be readable by everyone and some would have restrictions only to create topics, etc.

I hope my post covers all the suggestions made so far and I also apologize in advance in case some of the options are not even available in the present board software.

Edit I mean topic when I say thread.

[mtvesuvius]

Hanoi5, on Feb 26 2009, 09:11 AM, said:

One of the last suggestions was to re-classify the boards according to their function, so we'd have an 'Ask an expert' forum and a 'Assign the blame' forum and the 'Experts only' forum, maybe 'What would you bid?' forum, etc. Of course all forums would be readable by everyone and some would have restrictions only to create topics, etc.

I think this would be extremely valuable change, also the you don't have to sift through each type of thread. Another suggestion would be to add a "Regulations" Forum for all of those system and legal related threads. The proper moderators might be necessary, but with a little bit of work I think this would work great. Also, for the "Experts Only" forum, we might be able to take some of the other suggestions and create like a limited access Expert forum. Like I said, this will take some work, but I really think it would be the best solution. Maybe give a few dedicated BBF posters moderator powers also... This would take the stress off of Uday and Fred and all the others who probably have better things to do than slave over moving posts to different forums. Maybe the top 10 all time posters or something, provided that they post regularly... Or we could vote in say 3 moderators...

[matmat]

this is another one of these topics that keeps creeping up from time to time, isn't it?

[mtvesuvius]

matmat, on Feb 26 2009, 11:05 AM, said:

this is another one of these topics that keeps creeping up from time to time, isn't it?

Yep

Very very often.

[onoway]

Is the present system really broke? Sounds as though people who are reading things they don't care about are asking someone else to take over the editing so as to save them the effort of leaving and going to another thread. There have already been instances where a thread has been moved, so is there really a need to patrol the threads and sort them more than they already are? It's hard to imagine this would be a very satisfying or productive way for fine players to spend their time.

With this number of people there will likely always be some threads which wander into the "wrong" place. Usually someone makes a comment about it, which likely will encourage the poster to find the "right" spot the next time. The threads seem to be self regulating to a degree..it is possible to over organize and you will never please everyone.

I would much rather see the time and effort spent in certain other areas, but specifying them would mean this would be in the wrong forum thread.

[mikeh]

There is one massive, and so far as I know, insoluble problem.

Who defines who is or is not an expert?

What if someone thinks, legitmately or otherwise, that they should be entitled to post in the expert forum? How does a relative newcomer (tho expert) get included?

[neilkaz]

This forum is absolutely the best thing on the internet for bridge and there's nothing else that is a close second.

My thanx to Fred and the team here as well as the many frequent contributors.

I wouldn't change a thing, although the mods could move a couple posts now and then, but this isn't a big deal to me.

[ASkolnick]

I agree with Mike H about defining "expert". People may have different styles or different approaches to the problems which neither may be wrong.

If the question is really that inappropriate, I am sure someone in charge of the site could move it if enough people complain. I however don't think this is the best use of the SYSOP's time.

[david_c]

So many options!

My #1 wish would be the creation of an "Ask an Expert" forum (whether or not this is part of a wider reorganisation). At present there are threads of this type in the B/I forum, but:
1. They get mixed up with the "here's an instructive hand" type of threads.
2. It's not just B/Is who might want to ask questions!

Surely also mtvesuvius is right that we could do with a separate "regulations" forum.

I'm not particularly enthusiastic about the more fundamental changes that have been suggested. Like mikeh and others, I don't think there is any good way to ensure that posts in an "expert" forum are genuinely expert. It seems to me that BBF is quite good at this already. On the other hand, if people wanted to go ahead with a trial of a heavily-moderated expert forum, or suchlike, I don't see how that could do any harm. At worst it would just die through lack of support.

[Echognome]

First off, let me thank you for taking the time to create the poll. It was understandably not an easy task.

I voted for combine options where the two main things I would personally like to see are a reclassification of the forums and an expert forum created. There are several different ways in which this could be accomplished, but I am happy with any of them as an improvement over what is currently the status quo.

To answer Mike's question, the way I would recommend doing it is to have two groups of recognized "experts":

(1) Those already with stars on BBF
(2) Those assigned by the forum moderator or moderators.

I think ultimately we are going to have to trust someone's judgment and, initially, it seems wise to trust Fred's. I'm not saying that Fred would consider "stars" to be the only group of experts, but at least it's a third party relevant criteria we could use to start. I think the ultimate trust issue is going to be with respect to the moderators. I think perhaps to be a moderator, we would want people that not only are recognized experts, but also those that contribute a lot to the forums. Maybe an arbitrary cut off level of, say, 2500 posts? (Note: I didn't pick that number because I meet it, but because it's the cutoff before you can change your title.)

Anyway, we can sit here and argue over what the best criteria are for selecting "experts" or we can just think of simple criteria that can work.

[brianshark]

Reclassify the forums according to what should go in that forums (opening lead problems, squeeze analysis, bidding poblems, unusual system discussion, etc).

Change the existing adv/expert forum to an expert forum (an advanced forum is unnecessary imo). And ruthlessly move threads out of there if they don't belong.

[peachy]

There is CERTAINLY a large enough number of forums already. Perhaps for this reason, there is a lot of overlap when a particular post discussing some bridge aspect or a hand, could be in one of many forums (already existing ones) such as Interesting Hands, B/I Bridge, General Bridge Discussion, or Advanced/Expert Bridge. Moderator group could work well, and it would not have to be a lifetime volunteer job when there are several experts regularly posting here who might offer to serve as "traffic moderator"

[whereagles]

There are definitely TOO MANY foruns.

[jdonn]

I still like having just a few moderators who move threads to the proper forum. I mean how big a complaint can someone really make as long as their thread still exists?

[mtvesuvius]

jdonn, on Feb 26 2009, 01:13 PM, said:

I still like having just a few moderators who move threads to the proper forum. I mean how big a complaint can someone really make as long as their thread still exists?

It's amazing how almost all bridge players love to whine! So I'm sure there will be complaining, but I agree with you.

[jdonn]

mtvesuvius, on Feb 26 2009, 01:18 PM, said:

jdonn, on Feb 26 2009, 01:13 PM, said:

I still like having just a few moderators who move threads to the proper forum. I mean how big a complaint can someone really make as long as their thread still exists?

It's amazing how almost all bridge players love to whine! So I'm sure there will be complaining, but I agree with you.

Sure, when threads get moved to B/I. But I much prefer self-proclaimed experts who aren't really experts complaining about their thread being moved to the proper forum then having those same people plague the others.

[neilkaz]

jdonn, on Feb 26 2009, 12:23 PM, said:

mtvesuvius, on Feb 26 2009, 01:18 PM, said:

jdonn, on Feb 26 2009, 01:13 PM, said:

I still like having just a few moderators who move threads to the proper forum. I mean how big a complaint can someone really make as long as their thread still exists?

It's amazing how almost all bridge players love to whine! So I'm sure there will be complaining, but I agree with you.

Sure, when threads get moved to B/I. But I much prefer self-proclaimed experts who aren't really experts complaining about their thread being moved to the proper forum then having those same people plague the others.

We agree and I'll also note that some of the card play or what to lead questions in B/I are rather difficult for B/I. Does that mean that they should be moved ? I don't see a strong reason to do so.

However, the important thing is to get your questions answered or to get your lessons' points (provided they are correct) across.

With that in mind, I urge the large silent majority of readers here to post more, and don't be shy about using B/I where you won't get a bunch of "WTPs" in response to something many strong players think is obvious.

[H_KARLUK]

♠♥♦♣
1) There are 8 zonal organizations:
Europe; North America; South America; Asia&Middle East ; Central American&Caribbean; Pacific Asia; South Pacific; Africa.
Question : Do most of they prefer to join BBF ?
2) Masterpoints determine expertise. Such as WGM, WLM, WIM,WM. There are also Open, Women, Seniors, Youth categories.
Questions : Do notable theoricians and i.e. top 20 prefer to join BBF? Say they joined must we think as : hmm, he/she is on open but th other is jr. or even not.
3) Discussion style : Today I played an IMP tourney with Bob Drijver of Th Netherlands. I think he or his bro rite now at Yeh Bros cup. A nice junior. We finished 1st ranking. There werent a small sarcasm&gloating&offense&heartbreak attitude. Instead we laughed a lot. Did we do all moves correct? I dont think so. Maybe we were a bit lucky receiving pretty good gifts by opps and maybe a little good than our opps at th moment for this time.
Questions : Is it really hard to bear other ideas? Do any of BBF member certified as a WGM, WLM or always overall top 3 masterpoints owners in their nationals?
Well, recently i played as partners with WLM Tezcan Sen. We did not hurt each other. Moreover, i have his cell phone nr. When I need to ask his opinion he will keep his usual gentle manners. I know, he is a simple mind and humble pro. I m sure if i visit his local club he will show his utmost courtesy and politeness. Similar, Marcin Lesniewski and Per Olof Sundelin. So, maturity is an important factor.

To me let other ideas post. I do not think anyone has a must to agree or disagree. Think yourself as a columnist of any Bridge Magazine. You'll email yr point to a center then they will issue. You'll not see other ideas unless th volume sold on market, so you will not have a chance to fireworks.
Shortly, post yr own like not read other ideas and let others decide. No need to subjective debates.

Everyone has a style. Some likes to post, some likes not to post anything but only read or criticise etc.

I see many different bids&card play on archives. Also sometimes errors.
Is that mean one side is th very strong and th other party is th very weak?

Well, I think noone can learn that fact except at tables in th long run. Bear in mind, one player or team may start to play i.e. 5th of 6 in a tournament no matter local, national, international. Say then rise and down. I do not remember any team or player started and finished a career forever 1st.

Th matter is to read th idea, not to name harshly. It is th easiest way to expose an aggressive character. Th way trying to establish a superiority is just a madness. Sorry, I do not think options stated on poll are set on other serious forums.

I ve a book of rip Terence Reese. Published at New York Sterling Hayden Co as amalgam of two books. That years those ideas were mostly liked. Can we say same today?

My fair offer is starting to learn th origin countries of forum members and then question why other successfull winners are not here. I hope then a more healthy conclusion will appear. Th real matter is to tolerate culture and playing style differences. Otherwise one sometimes must be ready to read and ignore like in a pointless snide remarks heaven.

I don't think exaggerating things helps to reach th heart of an idea. Let's keep our polite fashion.
♠♥♦♣