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enough for 4D control?

#1 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2009-February-25, 11:29

Scoring: MP

1♥-4♣!-(DBL)
Pass-??
 
4♣=4+card ♥, singleton ♣ (no void), 12-14 HCP
Pass by partner denies 2nd control in ♣ (..Not sure if 2nd control is useful after splinter)
 
Do you bid 4♦ or 4♥ now. Is your 5th ♦ enough extra to bid 4♦?
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#2 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2009-February-25, 11:39

If 4♦ would be a cue bid, I don't think you need extras to bid it - you should do it whenever you have diamond control. The right way to differentiate between a minimum and a maximum is:
- If opener isn't interested, he signs off over the double of 4♣.
- If opener is interested only opposite a maximum, he passes 4♣. If responder now bids 4♦, opener bids 4♥. With a maximum, responder is expected to bid again.
- If opener is interested opposite any splinter, he passes 4♣, then bids past 4♥.
That allows opener to find out about both responder's strength and his diamond control.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#3 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-February-25, 12:00

I would bid 4♦. Why not? Maybe partner passed just to see if I had diamond control.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#4 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2009-February-25, 12:04

Partner's pass should deny first round control.

Now I bid 4♦, I don't see why this has to show a maximum, since a maximum will bid past 4♥ anyway.
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#5 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2009-February-25, 12:19

In most situations if partner has shown interest (as by passing here leaving me room) I play that cue-bids below game show only the control and no extra values. This makes 4♦ automatic.
Wayne Burrows

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#6 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2009-February-26, 09:13

If you have shown a range as precise as 12-14 you don't need extras to cue.
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#7 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2009-February-26, 10:32

Thanks all for the answers. On this hand it didn't matter much. I did bid ans partner continued with RKC and 2 aces were missing. (one Ace and Heart K).
Hoping that I can create some more detailed rules, I opened an other post.
- Also because of the support for 4♦ here. I thought it should/was best to show extra's.
- There was a remark that partners pass is showing extras because he can bid 4H with a minimum hand. Bidding 4H does probably not say enything about controls in ♣, but simply says that you are minimum. Can it have D-control?
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#8 User is offline   MFA 

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Posted 2009-February-26, 10:51

kgr, on Feb 26 2009, 11:32 AM, said:

- There was a remark that partners pass is showing extras because he can bid 4H with a minimum hand. Bidding 4H does probably not say enything about controls in ♣, but simply says that you are minimum. Can it have D-control?

Of course it can. 4♥ is a sign-off that simply just denies slam interest because of lack of power.
Michael Askgaard
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#9 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-February-26, 10:54

I would consider 5431 to be extras when the diamond suit is that good.
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#10 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2009-February-27, 04:30

[quote name='kgr' date='Feb 25 2009, 07:29 PM']
Scoring: MP

♠ Ax
♥ AJxxx
♦ KJx
♣ xxx

and bidding was:
1[he]-4[cl]-(DBL)
P-4[he]
4NT-5[cl]
5[he]
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