[H_KARLUK]

Scoring: IMP

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PASS   1NT  ?

What's yr agreement for such positions ?

[mtvesuvius]

I might have opened the North hand 2♠, but at this vulnerability that is very unattractive. After East bids 1NT, South can either Double for penalty if there is a Penalty double in their system, otherwise show the ♥ suit. Once South bids 2♥, North shouldn't pull becuase they have found a 5-2 or better fit, and partner could have a ♠ void. 2♥ should make 2 or 3...

[kenrexford]

4♠ seems like it could and should be made. Placing the spade Jack where it actually lies is about 2:16 in favor, or 1:17 or 3:15 or the average of all of this.

[helene_t]

I am not going to bid 2♥ vulnerable with this hand. Either pass or dbl. I like to play dbl as conventional (for example Woolsey, showing 5m+4M) so pass. North balances with 2♠ and is allowed to play that.

If South doubles for penalties, I am not sure if North should pull it or not.

[P_Marlowe]

Pass with the South hand, reopen with 2S with the
North hand, South will pass it out.

Given the vulnerabilty, I agree with the first Pass by
North.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Gerben42]

After Pass 1NT Pass Pass, North can be sure that partner has at least something, so he can throw in 2♦ Multi Landy. Now South has to bid 2♥ and not 2♠, because he wants opener on lead.

Reaching 4♠ is illusory, South knows that North is bidding his hand.

[peachy]

Pass over the opponent's 1NT with the good hand is clear. My agreement for a Dbl is penalty (not "points").
Bidding in the balancing seat is also clear, whichever bid has been agreed to show "onesuited in spades".
Bidding on over the balancing 2S would be unwise because partner already knows from the auction that I have some values.

[mikeh]

Most players no longer use a penalty double of a strong 1N. There are a number of reasons for this. These include: (1) the frequency is low; (2) if one defines 'penalty' as equal strength, the bid is prone to explode in your face when LHO holds half or more of the missing strength... partner won't always be able to run to a 6 card suit!; (3) many of the useful defences to 1N utilize double as part of the artificial structure.

Personally, I would always pass as South. Yes, we can see, on the entire deal, that pass might not work well if North also passes, and while everyone here suggests that north balance, in real life that might not be so clear. Reopening to show spades, having passed, is not risk-free... it is not only partner who knows that we didn't open a weak 2. And we are red v white, with no game aspirations..

So I wouldn't criticize an auction that ended in 1N. I think, but am not sure, that I would balance.I can't be sure because I have been poisoned by knowing that balancing would have worked.

If the reason for the OP was to see how either N or S should act, the best way is to post each hand separately. While we all try to ignore information that we would not have at the table (what the other hands look like), in reality it is just about impossible to do. As an example, everyone who has posted on the issue states that N would balance...yet in a real life game I am sure that we'd see some passes.

Also, in double-dummy posts like this one, we almost never see many posters conceding that they would get to a bad spot... yet we all know that tough hands are tough precisely because so many players go wrong in real life. I know I go wrong a lot more when I can't see the hands, and I am sure I am no exception.

[kenrexford]

Gerben42, on Feb 25 2009, 11:05 AM, said:

After Pass 1NT Pass Pass, North can be sure that partner has at least something, so he can throw in 2♦ Multi Landy. Now South has to bid 2♥ and not 2♠, because he wants opener on lead.

Reaching 4♠ is illusory, South knows that North is bidding his hand.

2♠ opening gets you there.

Or,

P-1NT-X-P-4♥(Texas) works.

[Echognome]

I'm not quite sure why people are saying that "partner knows we hold a good hand."

Partner knows that responder does not have an invite to game. That can mean anything up to a bad 8 count and definitely most 7 counts. As opener can have 17, that puts the opponents total anywhere from 15 to about 24.

That puts partner on a hand from about 10 to about 19. This is a fairly wide range. I'm not saying we should should move over 2♠, but I also don't think we have a minimum hand.

[mikeh]

BTW, if N balances to show a one-suiter with spades, I think S has to bid game.

I think that most would agree that the actual North hand is a minimum... it will usually be a little better, altho its range is limited by the fact that S is looking at 31-33 hcp between his hand and opener's. For one thing, North might be looking at 7 spades... a red v white 1st seat 3♠ opening should deliver a good suit, not a random 7 card suit. Nor is it reasonable to expect only a 5 card suit... N will not balance with a 5332 8 count (at least, he shouldn't), and a 5-4 biddable hand should show the 2-suiter if methods exist or should pass if they don't.

The game is not exactly cold...note that finding the spade Jack is not quite as simple as ken suggested... and even when one finds it, trump have to be 3-2, and the fact that East opened 1N increases the relative likelihood of East holding 4+ compared to the starting percentage of 15.75%. But it is a 'good' vulnerable game, and, most importantly, I think that S can expect that game will be decent opposite virtually any normal minimum reopening. This is not a hand on which to try to invite.

[kenrexford]

As an aside, but related.

Notice that the ability to make 4♠ here rests on the fact that the spade Jack, diamond King, and club Ace are where we expect them to be on the bidding. This makes, in a sense, the 10 worth as much (almost) as the Jack, the Queen as much as the King, and the King as much as the Ace, or three more points.

If the opposition was not in the bidding, South opening 1NT, and North having 3 more points (a six-card suit plus 9 HCP), 4♥ Texas would be "obvious."

I'd propose that the same principle sort of applies here, where strength is known to be behind strength.

Thus, I would not call North's hand, in the context of a double by South, a "minimum."

[Echognome]

kenrexford, on Feb 25 2009, 10:42 AM, said:

Thus, I would not call North's hand, in the context of a double by South, a "minimum."

Apples please meet oranges.

Would you call the North hand, in the context of a pass by South, a "minimum"? Because that's what we're talking about. I'm not quite sure why you are making the argument opposite a double, since most of us play double as artificial and showing a different hand type against a strong NT.

[kenrexford]

Echognome, on Feb 25 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Feb 25 2009, 10:42 AM, said:

Thus, I would not call North's hand, in the context of a double by South, a "minimum."

Apples please meet oranges.

Would you call the North hand, in the context of a pass by South, a "minimum"? Because that's what we're talking about. I'm not quite sure why you are making the argument opposite a double, since most of us play double as artificial and showing a different hand type against a strong NT.

If South passes because the double is artificial (makes sense), then the tables get switched, obviously. South adds three points and suddenly has a 19-count.

Personally, I add one point for every "finessable position," up to 4.

+1 for Kx in spades
+1 for AKJ in hearts
+1 for Qxx in diamonds
+1 for Kx in clubs

So, I'd treat the South hand as a 20-count contextually (meaning, I'd bid the South hand as if I had 20 HCP but knew nothing about RHO's hand). If partner bids anything, I'm off to the races.

Now, what precisely to bid might be a good question, but the standout seems to be 3NT, which North can pull. But, that pretty much shows balanced with a doubleton spade, which seems fair. 3♥ might work, if I really trust partner, but 3NT seems so darn practical.

[Fluffy]

South should pass 1NT, bidding hearts is not blatantl wrong, but the only way to reach game is that south hears a voluntary bid from north that is not in spades. That's why he should pass.

After the 2♠ reopening I think it is over, 5-2 fit doesn't play very well at the 3 level. If north wasn't a passed hand, south should try 2NT and probably stop again in 3♠.