[inquiry]

I was wondering if anyone had any experience with bittorrents (or maybe it is bit torrents). I am wondering what you think of them in general, how safe do you think they are, how much a hassle it is to not be classified as a leech, and if there was something you were interested in, would you join a torrent-thingee with a tracker.

[orlam]

Aren't these illegal?

[inquiry]

orlam, on Feb 22 2009, 12:38 PM, said:

Aren't these illegal?

Well, some bit torrents distribute material that is copyrighted, and therefore their use could be illegal. But if the copyright holder or holders set up a bit torrent there is nothing illegal about it. At least that is my understanding.

Can't imagine the technology is illegal.

[hotShot]

(Bit)torrent is a very intelligent way to distribute data in a short time to a lot of people. The trick used is that those who have already got parts of the data, transmit what they have to others. You all know a similar method from real life. Someone brings some copies, he gives all of them to the first, who keeps one for himself and gives the rest to the second.....
If you create more than one chain and allow the chains to interact you have a god understanding how it works.

If you enter such a network,while you download e.g. data, you are also distributing the data you already got. You can adjust the download and upload rate, so that it does not interfere to much with your regular network use. If you increase the upload bandwidth you offer, your system get more interesting as a distribution node and more nodes will connect to your node exchanging the data fragments they have with those you have.
This will lead to an increase in your download rate.
Once you have your data, you can/should leave the file available to others. Otherwise the the whole process would come to an end. Everybody would have to load the data from the original server and all advantages are lost.
If you are paying a fixed rate for your internet connection that does not depend on the data volume and adjust your upload rate to a reasonable limit you don't even notice that you are seeding the data to the net.

All this is perfectly legal, quite save and not much of a hassle, if you are downloading and relaying legal stuff. If you are downloading and distributing copyright protected stuff, you risk to get hassle with some layers sooner or later.

So if you want to download e.g. a new Ubuntu boot image everything is fine.

[Al_U_Card]

Best thing since sliced white bread.

We only watch episodic TV this way. No commercials and you get the whole season(s) at once. Within a day of the broadcast of the show, it is up and available.

We tend to allow uploads from what we have downloaded to make sure that we have a good "ratio" but it is only an issue at certain "private" sites (hadopeer, maroctorrent etc.) Mininova, piratebay etc. are never a problem. No virus' from those sites ever but it is good to read comments as sometimes a torrent will have a trojan attached to it.

I downloaded the first 2 seasons of the Wire and watched the first season over 3 days of viewing. Keeps it fresh from episode to episode. AND DID I SAY, NO COMMERCIALS!!!

[barmar]

Al_U_Card, on Feb 22 2009, 02:34 PM, said:

Best thing since sliced white bread.

We only watch episodic TV this way. No commercials and you get the whole season(s) at once. Within a day of the broadcast of the show, it is up and available.

Are these authorized by the copyright owners? If they offer the show on their web site, Hulu, or iTunes, it seems unlikely that they would allow free downloads with no commercials as well.

Quote

I downloaded the first 2 seasons of the Wire and watched the first season over 3 days of viewing. Keeps it fresh from episode to episode. AND DID I SAY, NO COMMERCIALS!!!

The Wire was on premium cable, it didn't have commercials in the normal broadcast, either.

[Al_U_Card]

I am not a lawyer but I gather that the torrent originators have been taken to court and have won in protecting their "method".

I have been using this method to download content of all kinds for almost 2 years with no negative repercussions.

The "tracker" goes thru the firewall and anti-virus program once you "allow" it. It does accept my uploads so I gather that it accesses my file system.

[inquiry]

Well, I would worry about using bittorrents with thebox and other sites that download copyrighted video or music files. A friend has set up bittorrents to freely and openly distribute content he creates. So the question I have is this save and is there a huge downside.

Does open a port on my computer to the Vuse (bit torrent program) increase the risk of successful computer attack on my computer. How much of a performance hit do you take when a torrent down loads to your computer. How about when you are loading bits up to someone else.

I have am certain that there is no copyright issue with downloading the files, as the creator is putting them on the web for free distribution.

Under these conditions, what is the downside. How bad do I have to want the content to go to the trouble of opening a port on my computer to prevent becoming a leech?

[1eyedjack]

The legal aspects of this are far from settled law. There is a case at the moment being heard against the four proprietors of the Pirate Bay. ISPs are also cracking down in various countries by warning and then disconnecting users (the ISPs also feel legally exposed for knowingly facilitating the transfers).

I gather that torrent traffic is declining at present, with a corresponding increase in direct streaming, presumably on a paid for basis but I wouldn't know. As direct streaming becomes more available (even on a paid for basis) I would expect torrent traffic to continue to decline. It is very cheap to provide the streaming, is faster, more reliable and less prone to trojans and nasties.

As to the TV series, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the production companies. I cannot think what they feel that they have to gain commercially by showing an entire series in one country, and then waiting several months before flogging it off to overseas TV companies to show.

As to the illegal music downloads, again whatever the legalities my sympathies with the copyright holders are very much tainted by the marketing practices of the music producers. I live in an area where the price of CDs is very much higher than the prices paid by consumers in other countries. The difference cannot be explained by distribution costs and can only be explained by a calculated policy on the part of the vendors that they reckon that the market place will bear a higher price. Aside from the possibility of price-fixing between organisations that are supposed to be competitors, they are probably perfectly entitled in law to sell for as high a price as they can get, but they don't get to win the hearts and minds of the consumers as well.

[Mbodell]

The most intuitive metaphor for a torrent is a phone tree (rather than the copy line). Where the original distributor starts sending the information out, and each person who gets the information in turn also starts sending the information out.

The main 2 differences between the phone tree and the torrent are that the phone tree is often predetermined (principal calls teachers who call PTA members who call other parents) which is brittle and can lead to failures. Torrent is more flexible (like the internet) where people can start up and rejoin randomly. The other difference from the phone tree is a torrent is usually thousands of small packets. So rather than giving the complete message to everyone, you send things out a package at a time, and this way some people have packages 1-100, others have packages 100-200, etc. And this way a new person can start getting useful packets from everyone.

If you use a relatively well known program (like Vuse) your risk of infection and/or attack is roughly the same as from running any normal well implemented computer program (like Google talk or BBO or AIM or whatever). Basically, if the program works as expected with no bugs, you aren't at risk. Sharing content doesn't really put you at much more risk (assuming the torrent client is properly implemented) than joining someone's table at BBO. Now if you actually run any content you've downloaded through the torrent, then you are at risk for infection. But again, if you are talking about media files, and not executable files, and you run them in a well functioning media player then you should be fine (your risks are basically running the downloaded file yourself and/or bugs in the media player).

As to the legality, that obviously varies by location and legal authority. Generally, nearly everywhere torrents are 100% legal as they are just a technology for distributing content. And as others points out it matters what the IP rights on the content are more for if something is legal or not. If someone releases content for free and blesses the torrenting of the content (as some independent music folks do), then in most places it would be fine to use a torrent to download that. In some places (for instance, AFAIK, Canada if the conservatives haven't managed to pass a new IP law recently) it is fine to download copyrighted material like episodic TV programs as long as it is for personal home use and it is also fine to allow others to download these things from you (think timeshifting a la VCR or DVR). In other places, it may be ok for you to download copyrighted content but not to share it. In other places the reverse is true where you can share it but not download it yourself. And in some places (like everywhere the RIAA can manage) neither is legal.

The other issue with torrents is that some ISPs are very torrent unfriendly (think Comcast (who have a broadband monopoly in 40 of the top 50 US cities according to NPR) and many college networks). The main reason is because torrents can be bandwidth hogs (although there may be secondary concerns when your ISP is also in the business of selling cable TV; For some reason some ISPs were also againsts voice over IP clients, but yet these same ISPs sell their own phone service - amazing that!). So if many college students use torrents (which they do), then much of the college network can get saturated with torrent packets. And for some ISPs, like Comcast, they have the issue where they sell flat rate unlimited data transmission plans promising or suggesting a certain speed, but then get upset if people actually use that much bandwidth. I think Comcast has gotten in trouble in the past for intentionally rewritting torrent traffic to drop torrents, particularly if someone is seeding and not downloading.

But all that said, I'd say you shouldn't worry about torrents. If there is content that is compelling to you that is legally available on a torrent, the technical challenges shouldn't worry you, you should just get it.

[inquiry]

Thanks Mbodell, this is exactly the type of answer I was looking for, and seems to agree with what I have read about vuse and torrents in general (it is a little hard to follow as the people writing about it are talking in geek-speak).

I might speak about this bittorrent site assuming its policies etc are ok and open.

Thanks again.

[mike777]

I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

Are high prices illegal?

Are high profits illegal?

Are owning content illegal?


any way event.........these posts seem to say yes...they should be free.

OTOH......giving content at some price may very well be profitable...in the very long run.

[Lobowolf]

1eyedjack, on Feb 23 2009, 01:34 AM, said:

As to the illegal music downloads, again whatever the legalities my sympathies with the copyright holders are very much tainted by the marketing practices of the music producers. I live in an area where the price of CDs is very much higher than the prices paid by consumers in other countries. The difference cannot be explained by distribution costs and can only be explained by a calculated policy on the part of the vendors that they reckon that the market place will bear a higher price.

Are you in a profession that offers a good or service that's priced without taking into acount the price that the relevant market will bear?

[1eyedjack]

Lobowolf, on Feb 23 2009, 10:04 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Feb 23 2009, 01:34 AM, said:

As to the illegal music downloads, again whatever the legalities my sympathies with the copyright holders are very much tainted by the marketing practices of the music producers.  I live in an area where the price of CDs is very much higher than the prices paid by consumers in other countries.  The difference cannot be explained by distribution costs and can only be explained by a calculated policy on the part of the vendors that they reckon that the market place will bear a higher price.

Are you in a profession that offers a good or service that's priced without taking into acount the price that the relevant market will bear?

Indeed I am. And that profession would not tolerate price fixing in a market that is supposed to be competitive.
But in any case I do not understand your point. I do not contest their legal right to behave as they do. Just as they should not contest my lack of sympathy with their plight when they come unstuck through alienating their customer base.

[barmar]

1eyedjack, on Feb 23 2009, 01:34 AM, said:

As to the TV series, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the production companies. I cannot think what they feel that they have to gain commercially by showing an entire series in one country, and then waiting several months before flogging it off to overseas TV companies to show.

As to the illegal music downloads, again whatever the legalities my sympathies with the copyright holders are very much tainted by the marketing practices of the music producers. I live in an area where the price of CDs is very much higher than the prices paid by consumers in other countries. The difference cannot be explained by distribution costs and can only be explained by a calculated policy on the part of the vendors that they reckon that the market place will bear a higher price. Aside from the possibility of price-fixing between organisations that are supposed to be competitors, they are probably perfectly entitled in law to sell for as high a price as they can get, but they don't get to win the hearts and minds of the consumers as well.

Sorry, but just because the content owner has what you consider stupid policies doesn't mean he loses his rights. He has no obligation to make things easy for you to get his content, and you don't get to circumvent his restrictions because you don't like them.

In many cases, I think the reason for the differences from country to country have to do with tariffs or contracts with various unions or production companies.

[1eyedjack]

barmar, on Feb 24 2009, 06:38 AM, said:

Sorry, but just because the content owner has what you consider stupid policies doesn't mean he loses his rights.

No need to apologise, because that is not what I said. Indeed it is not what I have said twice (and now a third time). Of course the vendor can set what policies he likes, just as I can bestow my sympathies (or not) accordingly.

barmar, on Feb 24 2009, 06:38 AM, said:

In many cases, I think the reason for the differences from country to country have to do with tariffs or contracts with various unions or production companies.

Possibly, in some cases, a fraction of the difference can be explained by that. It is worth noting that if I registered a credit card at a French address and purchased some music from an online store it would cost me a fraction of the price that I would be quoted, in the same currency, for the same material, from the same online site, using a credit card registered at a UK address. It is difficult to see how the factors that you suggest might contribute to that discrepancy.
http://news.bbc.co.u...ess/6520677.stm

[H_KARLUK]

I wonder what I missed

It might be a matter of "intellectual property"? If so, again it might involve such categories : trademark, patent, copyrights.
Then if there's a confliction about th case correct address supposed to solve it is any Federal District Court.
So a lawyer or Fed staff will be a chance to access additional case information on PACER/s.
Party Name (optional), Cases Filed In, Lawsuit Type, Plaintiff, Defendant, Case Number, Filed, Court, Office, County, Presiding and referring Judges (a Magistrate Judge)
Nature of Suit, Cause (maybe also diversity),
Jurisdiction, Jury Demanded By
Amount Demanded
details.

Or th matter is "contract, negotiable instrument, recovery of overpayment and enforcement of Judgement, other contract, contract product liability, franchise (sometimes seen as to make free; to enfranchise; to give liberty to or exemption from constraint or oppression; freedom; liberty and/or & privilege/s given by government/s)" ?
It may be interesting to read STATEMENT OF FACTS & COURT'S ANALYSIS & CONCLUSION.
i.e. IT IS THE DECISION OF THE COURT that plaintiffs’ appeal is denied & suspended etc.
A very troubling determination? Who knows, life is full of with unexpected things.

I don't get whether ethical or any other thing questioning, discussing there about in another great demand website. I think th Internet sometimes tends to be considered as a heaven for such demand & supply markets because of fast communication advantage. Hopefully I got wrong.

Everything does not depend on like & dislike ? One thing may seen as legal in A side and illegal in B side

[vuroth]

orlam, on Feb 22 2009, 12:38 PM, said:

Aren't these illegal?

I know of a couple of very reputable game software companies that have used torrents for a long time to distrubute their software.

As others have said, it's a technology.

[pigpenz]

i have been using bittorrents for about 4 years.
some companies have gone to offerring their programs..demos etc by bittornets cause it takes away from having to use their bandwidth.

the only problems i have run into is that some ISP's once they recognize that you are using torrents and if you do to much they can start throttling down your downlead speeds.

a lot of warez is now done by of torrents but also alot of legal stuff is done also. I have been actively using music forums like this (BBO) that cater to lossless music. I have been able to get almost every Neil Young concert for the last 3 years. Generally the concerts are only allowed as long as the artist allows it.

if you are looking for warez then you can go the demonoid or pirates bay route, but there is alot of trojans etc.

as far as leeching if you are doing legal stuff generally as long as you share what you download by going into the peer cloud its pretty easy not to be a leech.