[downagain]

You hold:
♠AQ
♥AJxxx
♦AKQxx
♣x

and decide to open 1♥ in first seat, playing IMPS, only we VUL.

Bidding continues:
1♥ - (4♣) - dbl - (5♣)
?

What would you do now? I thought pass should be forcing..and the most sensible way to explore slam..but we didn't get a good score when partner passed as well :/.

Is pass forcing in this situation? If so..would you also pass, or would you take some direct action with this nice hand.

Edit:
Would it be different if we are non vul?

[hotShot]

What do you intend to bid holding ♠KQx ♥AJxxx ♦Qxx ♣xx?
Because that is what you have shown yet, your 1♥ bid has not nearly shown your strength and shape. So how can your pass be forcing?

[OleBerg]

Forcing with the agreements I have with my partner.

- We have bid to game-level, and had no other (stronger) way of getting there.
- We are red vs. white.

I would expect any random expert partner to take it as forcing, probably no matter what the vulnerabilety is. (We have committed ourselves to game, with no known fit. So it should be safe to assume we have more than the balance of the strength.)

[OleBerg]

Oh yes,

and I "pass and pull", to show a good hand.

This also has the virtue of putting me in a better position, should partner surprise, and reopen with a bid instead of a double.

[helene_t]

Agree with Ole.

Hotshot, a forcing pass does not show strength. With you example hand either you dbl, or you pass and pass again when p doubles.

[P_Marlowe]

Pass is nonforcing.

Bid diamonds or double, I would go with
double, but I am usally happy, if I get only
pure bread and water to eat.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Codo]

I don't know which rules you have to create a forcing pass situation, but mine had been fullfilled by the double of 4 ♣.
So pass was forcing, but I must admit that I had not passed but bid 6 ♦ instead.
(Not because this is superior, but it simply makes life easier opposite a random partner.)

[cherdanno]

I would also bid 6♦.

[mikeh]

Several issues:

1. This should logically be a fp situation. Partner's double, which denies a primary heart fit, conveys the message that the 4-level belongs to us, on offence or defence, and this has to be based on some degree of high card strength given that we have no announced fit. So how can we afford to allow the opps to play at the 5-level undoubled? Answer: we can't

2. Given that we have the fp available, should we use it? I assume that all passers intend to pull the likely double. But to what? How can we expect partner to raise 5♦? How many Aces is he looking at and how good are his suits? Answer: none, and not very

3. Pass and pull is an invitation..it asks him to bid more if he has a good hand in context. But we don't need a 'good hand in context'. Most minimum value hands will offer a play for slam. Heck, even KJxxxx xx Jxx xx offers a play for slam, altho absent the spade 10, we need a 3-2 spade break (even if spades are trump, which they can't be).

4. Finally, I am not 100% sure that we belong in slam, so I would like to put some pressure on the favourable vul. opps.. who may choose to believe me and bid 7♣. They shouldn't but the opps sometimes do odd things, and now we are back in another fp.. and if partner makes the fp, I will happily bid the grand.

So my call is 6♦.

Edit: wtp? (just kidding)

[EricK]

My intitial thought was to bid 6♦. Having read the other replies, I still think 6♦. But Pass should be forcing here, I think.

[skjaeran]

Pass has got to be forcing here.
But I don't think passing can accomplish much - how can partner ever accept our invitation when we possess almost all the goodies ourself? So I bid 6♦.

[mikeh]

skaeran, on Feb 22 2009, 03:28 PM, said:

Pass has got to be forcing here.
But I don't think passing can accomplish much - how can partner ever accept our invitation when we possess almost all the goodies ourself? So I bid 6♦.

I have to learn to emulate harald: he said everything I said, but far more succintly

[gnasher]

Surely this is worth a pass and pull to 6♦, inviting seven? There's no harm in trying to cater for Kxxx Kx J10xx Axx.

[cherdanno]

gnasher, on Feb 22 2009, 04:34 PM, said:

Surely this is worth a pass and pull to 6♦, inviting seven? There's no harm in trying to cater for Kxxx Kx J10xx Axx.

I was thinking about that, but since partner doesn't know his ♣A is not wasted, I don't think he will ever move with no trump honor and no ace outside their suit.
Of course, I dont see any downside to the slow route either...

[Phil]

6♦.

The downside to the slow route is that partner may not be on the same wavelength or may not understand the nuances of our FP. What may be obvious to us may not be to pard. Pard may think we are implying a club void for instance.

There are two ways to get to 6♦, and I would rather reserve a stronger hand for a pass and pull anyway.

[jdonn]

Pass is obviously forcing. Will partner be on the same wavelength if we pass then bid 6♦? I have my doubts, but I agree it can't hurt. There is a 0.4% chance he will ever bid a grand, but a 0.000000035% chance he will pass it out, so we might as well try.

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Feb 22 2009, 05:36 PM, said:

Pass is obviously forcing. Will partner be on the same wavelength if we pass then bid 6♦? I have my doubts, but I agree it can't hurt. There is a 0.4% chance he will ever bid a grand, but a 0.000000035% chance he will pass it out, so we might as well try.

If he infers that pass then bid slam shows a club void, we are going to be very sorry if we take that route..

And why shouldn't he? I mean, he's over there thinking about why we passed then pulled, when an immediate 6♦ bid was available. Put it this way.. he may not be 'sure' that you hold a club void, but how would you bid if you held KJxxx Kx J10xx xx and heard this auction... pass then slam. Say you pass, and partner holds Ax AJxxxx AKQxx void.

I agree that there seems to be no clear answer, but to say 'it can't hurt' is flat out wrong when we have no agreement about the difference between 6♦ now or later.

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Feb 22 2009, 05:57 PM, said:

jdonn, on Feb 22 2009, 05:36 PM, said:

Pass is obviously forcing. Will partner be on the same wavelength if we pass then bid 6♦? I have my doubts, but I agree it can't hurt. There is a 0.4% chance he will ever bid a grand, but a 0.000000035% chance he will pass it out, so we might as well try.

If he infers that pass then bid slam shows a club void, we are going to be very sorry if we take that route..

And why shouldn't he? I mean, he's over there thinking about why we passed then pulled, when an immediate 6♦ bid was available. Put it this way.. he may not be 'sure' that you hold a club void, but how would you bid if you held KJxxx Kx J10xx xx and heard this auction... pass then slam. Say you pass, and partner holds Ax AJxxxx AKQxx void.

I agree that there seems to be no clear answer, but to say 'it can't hurt' is flat out wrong when we have no agreement about the difference between 6♦ now or later.

Wow I would just bid 7♦ over 5♣ with your example hand. I'm not sure what else I am waiting for. He could have two small hearts or something but I think we are making 7 a whole lot more than we aren't.

But I agree with your point that maybe I didn't fully consider what partner would assume. By saying it can't hurt I just mean he is unlikely to ever bid a grand no matter what we do, considering what he lacks. But I still like pass. Maybe partner bids 5♦ himself instead of doubling, and then I'm quite confident 5NT by me would try for a grand without a club void, since I could have bid 6♣ instead.

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Feb 22 2009, 06:03 PM, said:

mikeh, on Feb 22 2009, 05:57 PM, said:

jdonn, on Feb 22 2009, 05:36 PM, said:

Pass is obviously forcing. Will partner be on the same wavelength if we pass then bid 6♦? I have my doubts, but I agree it can't hurt. There is a 0.4% chance he will ever bid a grand, but a 0.000000035% chance he will pass it out, so we might as well try.

If he infers that pass then bid slam shows a club void, we are going to be very sorry if we take that route..

And why shouldn't he? I mean, he's over there thinking about why we passed then pulled, when an immediate 6♦ bid was available. Put it this way.. he may not be 'sure' that you hold a club void, but how would you bid if you held KJxxx Kx J10xx xx and heard this auction... pass then slam. Say you pass, and partner holds Ax AJxxxx AKQxx void.

I agree that there seems to be no clear answer, but to say 'it can't hurt' is flat out wrong when we have no agreement about the difference between 6♦ now or later.

Wow I would just bid 7♦ over 5♣ with your example hand. I'm not sure what else I am waiting for. He could have two small hearts or something but I think we are making 7 a whole lot more than we aren't.

But I agree with your point that maybe I didn't fully consider what partner would assume. By saying it can't hurt I just mean he is unlikely to ever bid a grand no matter what we do, considering what he lacks. But I still like pass. Maybe partner bids 5♦ himself instead of doubling, and then I'm quite confident 5NT by me would try for a grand without a club void, since I could have bid 6♣ instead.

you're right about my example hand.. I posted too quickly, but the underlying point is still, I think, valid

[jmcw]

You would think so. I'm with you here. P then bid to show strength.