[dicklont]

Scoring: MP

1♣ - p - 1♦ - 1♠
2NT

---

South bids 1♠ and now West has rebid 2NT.
Although these hands cannot give a problem - you'll end in 3NT anyway - they generated some discussion.
The question is, should east look for a fit in hearts by bidding 3♣ or can he finish the bidding right away with 3NT.

When the opposition is silent the 2NT rebid can be done on a hand with four spades and/or hearts.
But does this 2NT rebid deny four hearts since west could have doubled to show them?

[jdaming]

Do you play support doubles? That might be a situation when responder would have 4♥ and not double.

I generally play them and thus would say no it does not deny 4♥. If you are not playing them then I would say it "generally" would deny but could have if you had 4 little and a hand that "lived" at 2NT.

[kenrexford]

jdaming, on Feb 12 2009, 02:31 PM, said:

Do you play support doubles? That might be a situation when responder would have 4♥ and not double.

I generally play them and thus would say no it does not deny 4♥. If you are not playing them then I would say it "generally" would deny but could have if you had 4 little and a hand that "lived" at 2NT.

Support doubles for implied possible suits? Weird, but kind of sexy.

[hotShot]

The importance to show (good) ♠ stopper is greater than the importantance to show 4♥. So 2NT does not deny 4♥.

[RichMor]

Interesting question.

If we assume that a double of the 1♠ overcall shows 4 Hearts, then it seems reasonable to play that a 2NT rebid by opener denies 4 hearts.

But change the hand to:
♠) AK ♥)Kxxx ♦)AKx ♣)Qxxx
and opener might still rebid 2NT since it is a more descriptive call than a support double.

This would be a good problem to submit to the MSC.

[RichMor]

kenrexford, on Feb 12 2009, 02:34 PM, said:

jdaming, on Feb 12 2009, 02:31 PM, said:

Do you play support doubles?  That might be a situation when responder would have 4♥ and not double.

I generally play them and thus would say no it does not deny 4♥.  If you are not playing them then I would say it "generally" would deny but could have if you had 4 little and a hand that "lived" at 2NT.

Support doubles for implied possible suits? Weird, but kind of sexy.

Weird and sexy ? Could be. It is the standard BWS meaning for this sequence.

[helene_t]

Assuming a double would show four hearts, we don't play Walsh, and 2NT is non-forcing, I would take 2NT as denying four hearts. Even then, hosShot may very well be right, and it is certainly ok to bid 2NT with any hand that is willing to miss the hearts fit and play 3NT.

[HeavyDluxe]

RichMor, on Feb 12 2009, 02:49 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Feb 12 2009, 02:34 PM, said:

Support doubles for implied possible suits?  Weird, but kind of sexy.

Weird and sexy ? Could be. It is the standard BWS meaning for this sequence.

Standard meanings *are* weird for Ken....

[jdonn]

RichMor, on Feb 12 2009, 02:49 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Feb 12 2009, 02:34 PM, said:

jdaming, on Feb 12 2009, 02:31 PM, said:

Do you play support doubles?  That might be a situation when responder would have 4♥ and not double.

I generally play them and thus would say no it does not deny 4♥.  If you are not playing them then I would say it "generally" would deny but could have if you had 4 little and a hand that "lived" at 2NT.

Support doubles for implied possible suits? Weird, but kind of sexy.

Weird and sexy ? Could be. It is the standard BWS meaning for this sequence.

I think the "sexy" part is that partner responded 1♦, not 1♥. I'm a simple soul, I don't make support doubles for suits until partner has bid them.

To the original hand, sure look for a heart fit however your methods dictate (you can't just bid 3♥ on this auction?)

Edit: WOW it seems like every post till now except Ken thinks partner responded 1♥. Looks to me like he responded 1♦ lol.

[mike777]

dicklont, on Feb 12 2009, 01:59 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

1♣ - p - 1♦ - 1♠
2NT

---

South bids 1♠ and now West has rebid 2NT.
Although these hands cannot give a problem - you'll end in 3NT anyway - they generated some discussion.
The question is, should east look for a fit in hearts by bidding 3♣ or can he finish the bidding right away with 3NT.

When the opposition is silent the 2NT rebid can be done on a hand with four spades and/or hearts.
But does this 2NT rebid deny four hearts since west could have doubled to show them?

No, opener can have 4h.


An argument to play Walsh style and respond 1h.

[RichMor]

jdonn, on Feb 12 2009, 03:15 PM, said:

RichMor, on Feb 12 2009, 02:49 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Feb 12 2009, 02:34 PM, said:

jdaming, on Feb 12 2009, 02:31 PM, said:

Do you play support doubles?  That might be a situation when responder would have 4♥ and not double.

I generally play them and thus would say no it does not deny 4♥.  If you are not playing them then I would say it "generally" would deny but could have if you had 4 little and a hand that "lived" at 2NT.

Support doubles for implied possible suits? Weird, but kind of sexy.

Weird and sexy ? Could be. It is the standard BWS meaning for this sequence.

I think the "sexy" part is that partner responded 1♦, not 1♥. I'm a simple soul, I don't make support doubles for suits until partner has bid them.

To the original hand, sure look for a heart fit however your methods dictate (you can't just bid 3♥ on this auction?)

Edit: WOW it seems like every post till now except Ken thinks partner responded 1♥. Looks to me like he responded 1♦ lol.

Nope.

1♣ - (P) - 1♦ - (1♠)
X
shows 4 Hearts in BWS.

On the example hands, responder would bid 1♥ and not 1♦ if playing BWS.

[jdonn]

I think the problem was calling it a support double. The double showing 4 hearts is not a "support double", that is the name of a specific convention.

[jdaming]

I was merely catagorizing it as a support double as listed here (look in the additional situations the last one)

http://homepage.mac.com/bridgeguys/Doubles...portDouble.html

Either way I think depends on the style of the partnership.

[jdonn]

jdaming, on Feb 12 2009, 05:49 PM, said:

I was merely catagorizing it as a support double as listed here (look in the additional situations the last one)

http://homepage.mac.com/bridgeguys/Doubles...portDouble.html

Either way I think depends on the style of the partnership.

The website calls the double on this auction showing 4 hearts a "negative double", which is also wrong, but they don't call it a support double.

[jdaming]

I think it says:

"This particular auction, whereby both Minor suits have been bid by the partnership, may also become ambiguous since it is not clear whether the double of the opening bidder signifies a Support Double or a Negative Double showing a 4-card Heart suit. Again, a solid partnership agreement is necessary, especially for this particular bidding sequence."

Which is what I was saying. I think the terminology is close and generally interchanged but just so everyone knows what would you call it?

[jdonn]

jdaming, on Feb 12 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

I think it says:

"This particular auction, whereby both Minor suits have been bid by the partnership, may also become ambiguous since it is not clear whether the double of the opening bidder signifies a Support Double or a Negative Double showing a 4-card Heart suit. Again, a solid partnership agreement is necessary, especially for this particular bidding sequence."

Which is what I was saying. I think the terminology is close and generally interchanged but just so everyone knows what would you call it?

I think I see what you meant now, sorry. It's a later poster that misused the term. Anyway I'm fairly confident that double by opener there showing 4 hearts does not have a name.

[Lobowolf]

jdaming, on Feb 12 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

I think it says:

"This particular auction, whereby both Minor suits have been bid by the partnership, may also become ambiguous since it is not clear whether the double of the opening bidder signifies a Support Double or a Negative Double showing a 4-card Heart suit. Again, a solid partnership agreement is necessary, especially for this particular bidding sequence."

Which is what I was saying. I think the terminology is close and generally interchanged but just so everyone knows what would you call it?

The phrase "Support Double or a Negative Double showing a 4-card heart suit" doesn't imply that those are the same thing, but rather that it's ambiguous whether it's

1) a Support Double (showing 3 diamonds); OR
2) a Negative Double showing a 4-card heart suit.

Having said that, as Josh pointed out, if the bid shows a 4-card heart suit, it's not a negative double, either.

[naresh301]

jdaming, on Feb 12 2009, 04:33 PM, said:

I think it says:

"This particular auction, whereby both Minor suits have been bid by the partnership, may also become ambiguous since it is not clear whether the double of the opening bidder signifies a Support Double or a Negative Double showing a 4-card Heart suit. Again, a solid partnership agreement is necessary, especially for this particular bidding sequence."

Which is what I was saying.  I think the terminology is close and generally interchanged but just so everyone knows what would you call it?

I take that to mean "Partnership agreement is necessary to determine if the double is a support double showing 3♦, or a negative(!) double showing 4♥".

Are support doubles for minor suits common?

[blackshoe]

I think this concern with terminology is a bit misplaced. After all, partners can call it whatever they like between them, but when explaining to the opponents, it is illegal to just name it, whatever name you give it.

[the hog]

jdonn, on Feb 13 2009, 06:36 AM, said:

jdaming, on Feb 12 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

I think it says:

"This particular auction, whereby both Minor suits have been bid by the partnership, may also become ambiguous since it is not clear whether the double of the opening bidder signifies a Support Double or a Negative Double showing a 4-card Heart suit. Again, a solid partnership agreement is necessary, especially for this particular bidding sequence."

Which is what I was saying.  I think the terminology is close and generally interchanged but just so everyone knows what would you call it?

I think I see what you meant now, sorry. It's a later poster that misused the term. Anyway I'm fairly confident that double by opener there showing 4 hearts does not have a name.

Takeout Double?