[jdonn]

The_Hog, on Feb 12 2009, 09:41 PM, said:

jdonn, on Feb 13 2009, 06:36 AM, said:

jdaming, on Feb 12 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

I think it says:

"This particular auction, whereby both Minor suits have been bid by the partnership, may also become ambiguous since it is not clear whether the double of the opening bidder signifies a Support Double or a Negative Double showing a 4-card Heart suit. Again, a solid partnership agreement is necessary, especially for this particular bidding sequence."

Which is what I was saying.  I think the terminology is close and generally interchanged but just so everyone knows what would you call it?

I think I see what you meant now, sorry. It's a later poster that misused the term. Anyway I'm fairly confident that double by opener there showing 4 hearts does not have a name.

Takeout Double?

That's kind of like saying both of our names are "person". In other words it may well be a takeout double, but that is not the name and would in fact be a silly name since it wouldn't distinguish this specific convention from any other takeout double.

[the hog]

jdonn, on Feb 13 2009, 09:45 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Feb 12 2009, 09:41 PM, said:

jdonn, on Feb 13 2009, 06:36 AM, said:

jdaming, on Feb 12 2009, 06:33 PM, said:

I think it says:

"This particular auction, whereby both Minor suits have been bid by the partnership, may also become ambiguous since it is not clear whether the double of the opening bidder signifies a Support Double or a Negative Double showing a 4-card Heart suit. Again, a solid partnership agreement is necessary, especially for this particular bidding sequence."

Which is what I was saying.  I think the terminology is close and generally interchanged but just so everyone knows what would you call it?

I think I see what you meant now, sorry. It's a later poster that misused the term. Anyway I'm fairly confident that double by opener there showing 4 hearts does not have a name.

Takeout Double?

That's kind of like saying both of our names are "person". In other words it may well be a takeout double, but that is not the name and would in fact be a silly name since it wouldn't distinguish this specific convention from any other takeout double.

Yeah maybe, person.

[gnasher]

If someone said they were playing the double as "support", I'd assume that it showed 3-card diamond support. If they said it was "takeout", I'd assume that 1345 or 1435 was typical.

If the double simply shows any hand with four hearts, it's neither "support" nor "takeout". It seems to me that "negative" would be a good name for it, but in the absence of widely understood terminology I would simply describe it as "showing four hearts".

I have, in fact, seen this double given a name in print - I think Flint and Sharpe called it "Opener's Sputnik" in their 1980 book Competitive Bidding. This term seems not to have gained much popularity - Google produced three hits for it, and a further three for the same phrase without an apostrophe.

[kenrexford]

Well, one thing's for sure. Hopefully. I assume the double does not show three hearts. LOL

[ASkolnick]

Many people would actual call this treatment "snapdragon" where the double after diamonds shows 4 hearts. The name is irrelevant, as long as you know what you are playing.

[helene_t]

I've only heard the name "snapdragon" used for a double of a freebid, showing five cards in the unbid suit and two in partner's suit.

[jdonn]

helene_t, on Feb 13 2009, 11:46 AM, said:

I've only heard the name "snapdragon" used for a double of a freebid, showing five cards in the unbid suit and two in partner's suit.

It shows 0526.

[P_Marlowe]

2NT says, I am not really interested to know,
if partner has a 4 card heart suit.
If p has a 4 card heart suit, he can introduce
the suit, if he has a reason, say he has a 5413
shape.

But if he introduces hearts, he implicitly suggest to
play a 4-3 fit as well.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[benlessard]

I dont think take-out X here is pertinent. The X should show 4 in the M if a fit is possible or It should be a support for D.


1C----(P)------1D--------(1H)
??
X = support X of Diamonds since with 4S you can bid 1S (bal or unbalanced)


1C----(P)------1D------(1S)
X = not walsh 4H, walsh it should show 3D

[fachiru]

dicklont, on Feb 12 2009, 01:59 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

1♣ - p - 1♦ - 1♠
2NT

---

South bids 1♠ and now West has rebid 2NT.
Although these hands cannot give a problem - you'll end in 3NT anyway - they generated some discussion.
The question is, should east look for a fit in hearts by bidding 3♣ or can he finish the bidding right away with 3NT.

When the opposition is silent the 2NT rebid can be done on a hand with four spades and/or hearts.
But does this 2NT rebid deny four hearts since west could have doubled to show them?

Given the stiff ♠ and a potential ♥ fit (2nt does not deny that suit), I'd rate:
3♥=10
3nt=2

3nt is really lazy given the natural ♥alternative.