[Phil]

I think this a great idea, and a long time coming. My thoughts:

Anyone should be able to post problems, however, a moderator should have the latitude to transfer the thread from the proposed sub-forum (name TBD) to the BI (too basic), or to the SAYC 2/1 or Non-Natural (more of a systemic than a judgment issue). IMO, the moderators do not have active enough roles here, except for the deletion or locking of offensive posts / threads.

Choosing a panel is tough, however, the LAST method I would support is using gold-stars. Fred or Uday can correct me if I am wrong, but at one time these were handed out on a referral basis, especially when Fred and Uday weren't familiar with the national-level players from a country like (fill in the blank). Accordingly, the possession of a gold star is not a measure of playing proficiency IMHO, and should not be used as a determinant for stocking an expert panel.

I would suggest the formation of a committee of perhaps the top ten posters that are active and respected on BBF and I would give this job to Fred (if he would accept it). This initial group would nominate perhaps ten more of the active posters to round out and comprise a core group. This group of 20 players would also have the responsibility (honor?) to expand the panel by discussing the new sub-forum with their peers.

The same initial committee would have the responsibility of monitoring behavior and tone of its members.

I think the comments about this new sub-forum eroding the interest and credibility of other sub-forums is rubbish. If anything, more interest in the forums will be a benefit, since a lot more people will be reading them.

[hrothgar]

Phil, on Feb 15 2009, 10:49 PM, said:

Choosing a panel is tough, however, the LAST method I would support is using gold-stars. Fred or Uday can correct me if I am wrong, but at one time these were handed out on a referral basis, especially when Fred and Uday weren't familiar with the national-level players from a country like (fill in the blank). Accordingly, the possession of a gold star is not a measure of playing proficiency IMHO, and should not be used as a determinant for stocking an expert panel.

I would suggest the formation of a committee of perhaps the top ten posters that are active and respected on BBF and I would give this job to Fred (if he would accept it). This initial group would nominate perhaps ten more of the active posters to round out and comprise a core group. This group of 20 players would also have the responsibility (honor?) to expand the panel by discussing the new sub-forum with their peers.

Rather than dumping this all into Fred's lap, we might try something like the following:

1. Allow anyone to nominate their 10 top suggests for a core committee.
2. Said nominations are sent (in private) to Uday or Ben or whomever.
3. The results are collated, and the top 10 vote getters identified
4. This list gets sent over to Fred for final approval

[csdenmark]

matmat, on Feb 15 2009, 09:38 PM, said:

csdenmark, on Feb 15 2009, 02:09 PM, said:

The question is:
- Who are the experts to explain about polish methods?
- Who are the experts to explain about french methods?
- Who are the experts to explain about swedish methods?
- Who are the experts to explain about turkish methods?
- Who are the experts to explain about italian methods?

who cares?

if the forum works well all the relevant posters will filter in.

Besides, i expect that:
- a lot of the discussions will not be related to systems, but rather cardplay
- a lot of the bidding problems will be system independent (make slam try or not? show shortness or not? etc.)
- there aren't that many experts on the methods mentioned above on the forums anyway.

if the forum works well all the relevant posters will filter in.
The Forum does not work well else this thread would not come up

a lot of the discussions will not be related to systems, but rather cardplay
Correct - but the threads with questions are mostly related to the auction

a lot of the bidding problems will be system independent (make slam try or not? show shortness or not? etc.)
Correct - No need calling for experts to explain basics

there aren't that many experts on the methods mentioned above on the forums anyway
This is the real problem. There are not so many experts available. And those available are not experts about what is important to those who asks.

[TimG]

hrothgar, on Feb 15 2009, 03:20 PM, said:

Phil, on Feb 15 2009, 10:49 PM, said:

Choosing a panel is tough, however, the LAST method I would support is using gold-stars. Fred or Uday can correct me if I am wrong, but at one time these were handed out on a referral basis, especially when Fred and Uday weren't familiar with the national-level players from a country like (fill in the blank). Accordingly, the possession of a gold star is not a measure of playing proficiency IMHO, and should not be used as a determinant for stocking an expert panel.

I would suggest the formation of a committee of perhaps the top ten posters that are active and respected on BBF and I would give this job to Fred (if he would accept it). This initial group would nominate perhaps ten more of the active posters to round out and comprise a core group. This group of 20 players would also have the responsibility (honor?) to expand the panel by discussing the new sub-forum with their peers.

Rather than dumping this all into Fred's lap, we might try something like the following:

1. Allow anyone to nominate their 10 top suggests for a core committee.
2. Said nominations are sent (in private) to Uday or Ben or whomever.
3. The results are collated, and the top 10 vote getters identified
4. This list gets sent over to Fred for final approval

This assumes that the top ten vote getter would accept the responsibility.

One problem with this sort of thing is that the people that nominate themselves aren't always the ones that would be wanted and the ones that would be wanted aren't always interested.

[jdonn]

qwery_hi, on Feb 15 2009, 01:41 PM, said:

jdonn, on Feb 14 2009, 08:07 PM, said:

In response to some of the concerns, I think the idea is to only restrict based on the original post in a thread. Anyone could reply or ask a question. It's not perfect but it's definitely an improvement.

No one is saying certain people don't have the right to start a thread or post in general. The forums (in general) would simply function better if posts were filed to the proper (specific) forum, that's all.

Sounds good.

But are we making the implicit assumption that only A/E can ask the interesting questions in Bridge?

I don't think there is any implication of that. Many of the questions posted by B/I players are very interesting and tend to be thoughtfully answered by the more advanced players. The point is simply that those questions belong in the B/I forum.

I still think lots of the ideas in this thread go too far. I feel a good start would simply be give about 5 more people the power to move threads from any forum to any other. Then charge those people with keeping the threads in the appropriate forum. No need for membership committees or new forums or exclusive clubs.

[655321]

I too have mixed feelings.

To me the biggest problem - or perhaps annoyance, rather than problem - is not people who post a non-problem, or who recommend a bad bid. Nothing wrong with people giving their opinion. Rather it is the people who hammer away, making post after post defending their bad recommendation, or their bad methods, causing threads to be covered with 'a thick layer of garbage'.

I understood Justin's original post to be asking for a forum where any person who is (according to some selection criteria) a good player and a sensible poster can post. This is not the same as limiting the new forum to exactly 10 posters, as suggested by people later on.

But, maybe something like this is worth trying. If the new forum does not work, it can just be closed down.

TimG, on Feb 15 2009, 11:03 AM, said:

As something of an aside, I am often amused by the jlall groupie factor.  We've all seen a question posed that receives a half dozen "I pass because" answers.  Then Justin chimes in with "I can't understand passing, I'd bid 2S because" and there are suddenly a bunch of "2S, wtp" posts from an often predictable group of posters. 

LOL, I have also been amused at this - there is one regular poster in particular who is quite blatant about copying Justin's answers.

[Winstonm]

Wouldn't it be easier to simply furnish those concerned with an expert-only-secret-thread decoder ring and a pair of those nifty drivel-proof BBF Bridge-Matrix 3D sunglasses?

[helene_t]

655321, on Feb 15 2009, 10:38 PM, said:

- there is one regular poster in particular who is quite blatant about copying Justin's answers.

It's the other way around. Whenever I show that Justin is wrong, he edits his post so that it looks as if he agreed with me in the first place.

[JLOL]

Fred and Uday: Thanks for hearing my idea and the opinions on it, whatever happens.

Winston/some others: My goal is not to demean non experts, as matmat said I was basically demeaning the trolls who post like they are adv/exp etc when they aren't. I will agree if your view is that I should never be demeaning towards any group of people no matter what they do though. I have no problem with people who are not adv/exp in bridge. In fact I think people like jillybean who are not afraid to ask questions and try to improve are great, I'm sure she asks questions that a lot of intermediates might wonder about and learn a lot from it and it's easy to see she's grown a lot as a player in the last few years.

However, jillybean does not pretend to be an expert on bridge. Likewise I rarely post in the watercooler on threads related to science, and I do not pretend like I know anything about it. There are a LOT of really smart people on the forums though and I really enjoy reading those threads and learning stuff. Occasionally if I am confused I will ask a question about something there. If there was a seperate subforum for people who were experts in the various fields of science to discuss some more high level things there, I would never try to post something with authority about something that is likely way over my head. I would NOT be shocked if I started making terrible posts in their high level science threads that basically derailed their discussion if they were not happy, especially if there were 8 other sub forums that I could post on.

So anyways, if you interpreted my OP in this thread as trying to say people who are not expert bridge players suck at posting or something, that is really not what I meant. I just think you suck at posting if you pretend like you are an expert when you are not, and post on the adv/exp forum accordingly.

As you have alluded to, I often work with and play with non expert players, many of them are very successful in business/life and are very interesting and good people that I am good friends with. I have a lot of respect for people who have been successful in other areas of life. I have no respect for the trolls on this forum though. But again, if your view is that I should be more respectful than I have been in this post and others to the trolls, maybe you are right, but at least I got my disdain for them across.

All: I agree with the concept that this might be a better idea in theory than in practice because of the real world problems of implementing it. That said, I think that this can be made to work. I just want to reiterate that I think that this would raise the quality of posts of the advanced/expert posters, and probably bring back some others (hi hanp!).

I mean, I was reading through my posts from like 2005, and comparing them to my posts now, and it's clear that I used to put a lot more time and thought into each post that I made. Then I did the same with many of the other posters, and most of those who haven't just left the forums are the same. Sure, a lot of the responsibility for this is on ourselves, we don't have to make short answers and sarcastic answers, but I think that if there were some place to discuss hands without a huge amount of trolls it would be a lot easier and more motivating, and less disheartening.

Also, I noticed I don't post many new hands anymore. Most (but not all) of the best active posters seem to not post hands. I suspect this is because most of the discussion in the adv/exp threads will be meaningless for them. Even if they point to the relevant point, it will get into some convention or something. I know that I personally have a lot of pretty high level/interesting hands every day though that I discuss on AIM with people, and there are a lot of people on these forums who I would like to discuss them with as well, so I would love to post hands on this proposed new forum.

The last thing is that I think that on every forum right now it is possible for people to ask questions and get responses from experts. I think that if this new forum does happen it won't stop people from being able to ask questions and get answers, it just won't happen on that forum. I think it was TimG who suggested asking a question about something on another forum if they see something interesting on the new forum, and it's not like all the other sub forums will disappear all of the sudden. The current adv/exp forum and the beg/int forum and the sayc forum and the interesting bridge hands are all used like that currently, so I think this one could be different without losing any of the current value.

Also it's not like the best players that post on this forum would start ONLY posting on the new forum, let's be honest...we're all too addicted for that

[y66]

My game is between intermediate and intermediate plus. Personally, I don't have a problem sifting through all the differing opinions.

If doing something along the lines JL proposes makes posting on this forum more attractive to experts, then I'm for it.

Would definitely not resent being restricted from posting on an experts only forum.

[Winstonm]

Justin,

I know you to be a likeable, pleasant, and engaging fellow who would not meaningfully insult others. I am an old man, now, but I used to be young. One thing I learned over the years is that words are like bullets, that once fired they cannot be stopped and sometimes do more damage than intended.

That's all I'm saying.

[HeavyDluxe]

An observation: Scanning through this thread, I've started to notice that it sounds a lot like our rants for/against self-ratings on BBO.

If that's an accurate observation, perhaps the solution is not a new forum to lock out 'pretend experts'. Maybe it would be better to simply leave their threads bare, without replies. Let them die the slow death of silence...

Anyway, I still have no problem with the forum idea in principle. I think most of the people on here whose opinions matter to me are gracious enough with their time in the other forums on here. As such, affording them a 'big boy' sandbox of their own may be both a respite to them and an education for me. Clearly there are administrative and other 'costs', as others have pointed out. I can't judge which case trumps the other, though.

(As an aside, thanks to everyone who posts here... I'm grateful for your time!)

[peachy]

jdonn, on Feb 14 2009, 08:07 PM, said:

I'm all for some sort of way to monitor forums. Instead of a new forum for 'real' A/E, I was thinking of this idea:

Have a team of accepted volunteers who take any post that would start a new thread and allocate that first post to a specific forum, rather than letting any random wannabe expert post in A/E. Although I'm not saying people enjoy being babied, I'm sure they would get over it since all their threads would be posted, and it shouldn't matter to them in which forum.

Alternatively, such volunteers could simply be given the power to move threads from one forum to another, which would prevent a participant from having to wait for his initial post in a thread to be posted. I know Inquiry/Rain/Gerardo/Fred and maybe some others already have this power, so I say just spread it to a few more people whose job it is to keep the threads in each forum appropriate for that forum. The more I think about it this is probably the best idea to keep things in order.

Justin's idea is fine too, but I like my second one more since it would have the least disruption to the community in general but still accomplish the intended goal. Thoughts?

edit: How did I forget Uday lol. Brain fart.

I like Josh's idea of moderators who move a post to an appropriate forum if needed. There are enough forums as it is. I would not be too worried about hurt feelings. There are afterall only a few persistent intermediates or lower who just want to hear their own voice in the Advanced/Expert forum [this is the impression I get] and once they get return to reality, they might enjoy discussions even more at the appropriate level.

[Echognome]

I rather like the idea. I would really enjoy being able to post a question and only get the top expert advice on the hands. We might get some different views on what the "right" answer is on a hand, but more importantly, we would get a great insight into how to think about finding the right answer.

Naturally most regular posters filter the advice they see now based on who is posting the response. This subforum would be a place where you can just read expert opinion. I would think the easiest implementation would be:

Anyone can post a question. Only a select group of posters can respond. A moderator or committee maintains the selection of posters. That's it.

[awm]

One problem I've noticed is that the number of new threads started per day has grown considerably. Often I've looked at a thread (or started one myself) only to see that less than a day later, it has completely disappeared from the page of "most recent" threads.

Now obviously to some degree this is a result of the increasing number of posters, which is good. And if all the threads are interesting then there's not so much we can do. But sometimes the threads are mostly not interesting, and are crowding out the really good questions and contributions. A simple fix for this without creating a new "expert club" (membership in which is likely to be highly subjective and controversial) might be to limit the number of new threads a single poster can start per day (especially in the advanced/expert forum). If people feel it's really important, the limit could be higher for people with a solid reputation as experts (but without completely banning anyone from starting new threads).

[Elianna]

jdonn, on Feb 15 2009, 01:25 PM, said:

I still think lots of the ideas in this thread go too far. I feel a good start would simply be give about 5 more people the power to move threads from any forum to any other. Then charge those people with keeping the threads in the appropriate forum. No need for membership committees or new forums or exclusive clubs.

I agree.

I think that the board could use a bit more organization. A lot of people seem to like using the A/E forum for posts that don't really belong there such as:

1) "This hand has a funny story" - this belongs in the interesting bridge hands. (whether or not it's actually interesting is a topic for another time)

2) "I want to see what others say about this hand/bid so I can tell them why they're wrong" - Again, interesting bridge hands (or B/I)

3) "What is the right 2/1/SAYC/strong club/etc. bid on this hand?" When it's a question of system, it should be in the system thread, I think. But I understand that this is controversial, as it may be a matter of judgement, but why can't we have judgement questions in there?

4) "Please explain this convention to me./Let me explain this convention to you" - Either B/I or systems, depending on the convention.

I also agree with Adam about limiting people to only being able to start one thread a day in A/E. I do think that some of the problem people may be having is fatigue (going through SO many uninteresting threads).

[jdonn]

I have no idea if it's the same people or not, but I hope anyone arguing in favor of limiting the amount of new threads per day is not one of the people who also gets annoyed when people ask about multiple hands in the same thread.

[qwery_hi]

awm, on Feb 15 2009, 09:22 PM, said:

A simple fix for this without creating a new "expert club" (membership in which is likely to be highly subjective and controversial) might be to limit the number of new threads a single poster can start per day (especially in the advanced/expert forum). If people feel it's really important, the limit could be higher for people with a solid reputation as experts (but without completely banning anyone from starting new threads).

Good idea - limiting it to one is going to make everyone feel part of the club, while reducing noise. If the limit were zero, my prediction is the forum would reduce to a clique.

[Elianna]

I think threads per day in A/E is different than threads per day in other forums.

[matmat]

i think limiting # of threads per day is a good idea in principle, but I suspect difficult to implement. I wouldn't expect the bulletin board software to have such a feature (ready to be proven wrong tho!)