[matmat]

I guess maybe I am not concerned about people's feeling as some of you are. I don't think bursting someone's bubble by pointing out that they are not, in fact, advanced/expert might be a good thing, even if it hurts a little bit. If such a forum existed I may even make it a point to try to improve my game enough to be allowed to post in it

The sort of stuff that the OP is referring to happens all the time in some schools where the teachers lecture to the below average kids to make sure they don't fall too far behind, and the brighter kids sit there bored to death. I don't think the forums should foster this sort of system, if there is a way to improve it.

Also, it's not really fun trying to wade through unclear, poorly written, obscure, off-topic essays in the A/E forum.

[matmat]

TimG, on Feb 15 2009, 11:03 AM, said:

"I'm doing my service to the community by posting interesting problems and answering questions, I ought to be more appreciated".

that reminds me of the "you must like me and appreciate me because I donate time to direct tournaments" attitude...

lol


(sorry, off topic. couldn't help it)

[matmat]

TimG, on Feb 15 2009, 11:03 AM, said:

If you're looking for an expert forum for expert discussion of expert issues, I'd suggest lobbying for implementation of an "ignore" feature or more diligently ignoring unworthy posts.

that's one possibility.

I've also seen other forums having "is this post useful to you" features and a visible rating. additionally individual posters could be given ratings by the forum readers.

i've not thought through this much, nor do I know how well such schemes work at other forums.

[sireenb]

This is an interesting idea and I think it may add value to the forums if applied properly...but let me digress first...

Log onto BBO at any time and you will find thousands there, whereas very few people can be found at the forums. Any modification to the forums should have the goal of increasing forum participation. We need more people here, even if they only read and don't post. Once a player makes it a habit to visit the forums, he/she may eventually post something and discover that it was not so scary after all!

I started reading the forums a couple of months after I started playing on BBO. I wanted to get a better idea about 'mainstream' BBO bridge. When I moved out of my circle of 'a few trusted partners' and started jumping to any table I found that many concepts that seemed so obvious to me were quite unheard of here. Furthermore, some conventions that I would not dare to play with anybody except after a firm agreement seemed 'default'. The standard BBO convention cards are abbreviated so I hoped that the forums would provide more detailed information.

I kept coming back because I love reading about anything to do with Bridge. Don't tell my partners but I read the forums when I am dummy

Did the forums supply answers? Well, there is a lot of elaboration on the systems but I doubt that many people have read any of that! However, the discussions have highlighted some areas where there is no consensus and this is very helpful. It is good to know when even a BBO expert may or may not be on your wavelength! Areas where there is consensus are again instructive (which is why I do not mind 'I agree with so-and-so' posts and I love polls).

Is that why other people visit the forums? I cannot speak for anybody else but it seems (from the posts) that many (like me) visit the forums to learn and some visit the forums to help others learn with a very small overlap between the two groups.

Now back to the Expert forum. A limited write-access and/or moderated forum targeting expert topics would be great as that may be a good place to search for value-added posts rather than sifting through zillions of threads to stumble upon something like that. If the subjects and discussions are of high quality, the forum may well attract new readers.

However, I strongly believe that such a forum should be something 'extra' on top of the other existing forums, and should be more concerned with general topics rather than Q&A sessions about specific hands that have a tendency to veer off in all sorts of directions sometimes completely losing the main point of the hand.

As for the Beginner/Intermediate and Advanced/Expert forums…. Many people post questions there for advice. When a player posts a question he/she does not know if the answer is in the beginner or expert domain. It may seem obvious to 99.9% of posters that a question is trivial but they should understand that the person who asked the question did not know that. For every person that who dares to ask a question there may be dozens of shy players anxious for the reply who are really happy that somebody else took the initiative and asked! Just imagine how these people feel when abuse is hurled at the initiator of the thread because it belongs somewhere else in the forums!

The same question may have a different answer depending on which forum triggered it. In the Beginner/Intermediate forum it is better to keep things black and white whereas the other forum has room for gray area elaboration and discussion. What I am trying to say is that the filtering should be for the audience, and not on the questions! Any question in the Advanced/Expert forum with only a couple of replies is probably a simple question so there is no need to even mention it

I have been teaching Bridge (and sometimes other stuff) for many years and it is very important to treat every question with respect otherwise ALL students just stop asking questions. Treating the question with respect does not necessarily mean answering it, but it does mean you cannot object to the fact that the person asked. This may be one of the problems with these forums. I think people tend to read a bit before they post anything, to get a feel for the place. Unfortunately; anybody reading, even a little bit, is bound to come across the jeers and sneers and that may well put them off asking or saying anything forever.

Looking forward to browsing this Expert forum if it ever materializes...

Sireen

[Winstonm]

Sounds to me like you are describing an invitation-only forum.

[matmat]

I am not convinced that the goal is to increase forum participation at all cost. there is something to be said for the quality/quantity ratio...

[csdenmark]

TimG, on Feb 15 2009, 06:03 PM, said:

It is the B/I that may be unable to recognize the good answers from the bad, so it would be of more benefit to the community if the B/I were moderated so that the advice given there were more reliable.  Unreliable advice in the A/E forum being more recognizable to the A/E players reading the forum, it is less important to moderate it.

If you're looking for an expert forum for expert discussion of expert issues, I'd suggest lobbying for implementation of an "ignore" feature or more diligently ignoring unworthy posts.

I completely agree that this is the good and probably the most easy solution to implement.

I think the problem which is of most importance is the cultural problem. We need much more persons from non-english speaking countries. Great bridge nations like Poland and Italy are rarely posting here. With the exception of US I think the most frequent bridge player on BBO is from Turkey. Those are also invisible in this Forum.

International bridge is much more than USA and ACBL.

[Winstonm]

Quote

Since the advanced/expert forum is a complete joke where everyone posts anyways, I propose a forum that is somehow restricted where there can be some real bridge discussion between people who are advanced/expert without having to read through all the worthless drivel from the selfish unaware people who are not advanced/expert who just want to hear themselves talk.

I hope your livelihood isn't dependent upon getting along with lesser mortals who are "complete jokes" when it comes to bridge.

[ghow]

I agree with Roland and Helene_t's replies here. I have been a BBO member since
2005 and my bridge game has improved in part by watching expert matches on Vugraph and in part from discussions in the forums. I would hate to be excluded from
discussions in a forum much the same as I would hate to be barred from kibbitzing
vugraph matches simply because of my skill level (or someone elses interpretation of my skill level).
OTOH, I understand JLOL's frustration with some of the "expert" posters nonsense. Having a forum where l posts are restricted to "experts" that allows anyone to
read the posts would be an acceptable alternative for me although being able to ask a question after reading a post would be better.

[hrothgar]

csdenmark, on Feb 15 2009, 08:08 PM, said:

TimG, on Feb 15 2009, 06:03 PM, said:

It is the B/I that may be unable to recognize the good answers from the bad, so it would be of more benefit to the community if the B/I were moderated so that the advice given there were more reliable.  Unreliable advice in the A/E forum being more recognizable to the A/E players reading the forum, it is less important to moderate it.

If you're looking for an expert forum for expert discussion of expert issues, I'd suggest lobbying for implementation of an "ignore" feature or more diligently ignoring unworthy posts.

I completely agree that this is the good and probably the most easy solution to implement.

I think the problem which is of most importance is the cultural problem. We need much more persons from non-english speaking countries. Great bridge nations like Poland and Italy are rarely posting here. With the exception of US I think the most frequent bridge player on BBO is from Turkey. Those are also invisible in this Forum.

International bridge is much more than USA and ACBL.

Wow...

A forum in English is predominantly visited by folks from English speaking countries...

Will the wonders never cease

[matmat]

Winstonm, on Feb 15 2009, 12:24 PM, said:

I hope your livelihood isn't dependent upon getting along with lesser mortals who are "complete jokes" when it comes to bridge.

I really don't see how this has anything to do with a request for a true Expert forum.

my reading of "complete jokes" isn't "lesser mortals," it's trolls and self-appointed world class players who've never heard of restricted choice or some such.

[Winstonm]

matmat, on Feb 15 2009, 12:55 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Feb 15 2009, 12:24 PM, said:

I hope your livelihood isn't dependent upon getting along with lesser mortals who are "complete jokes" when it comes to bridge.

I really don't see how this has anything to do with a request for a true Expert forum.

my reading of "complete jokes" isn't "lesser mortals," it's trolls and self-appointed world class players who've never heard of restricted choice or some such.

Quote

where there can be some real bridge discussion between people who are advanced/expert without having to read through all the worthless drivel from the selfish unaware people

You are right. They are not lesser mortals, simply selfish unaware people who spout worthless drivel.

There is a way to express oneself without demeaning others.

[hrothgar]

I think that Justin's suggestion is a reasonable one, however, i think that implementation is likely to be tricky: There are a lot of competing design goals...

I would favor a system like the following:

* Anyone / everyone is allowed to read the forum

* Anyone can post new topics or reply to threads. However, said comments need to be approved by some kind of moderating committee.

* BBO "Stars" are have unfettered ability to post... Their comments don't need to get approved by said committee.

Stars get to decide whether "random" forum members also get to bypass the moderating committee. (This would permit posters who contribute valuable content the ability to post more quickly)

I'd favor a system in which

1. A given Star can sponsor 0-3 forums members at a time.
2. Some kind of voting system is used to elevate nominees
3. Stars can blackball 0-1 people at a given time

[uday]

One simple, cheap way to implement this:

create an area ( similar to watercooler but owned by whoever wants to moderate this).

Have the owner/moderator erase posts at will . Naturally, we'll toss in a warning that low-quality posts will be erased/edited without warning, and that quality is defined only by the moderator.


another simple way is to have the particular area be fully moderated. ideally, where moderator can flag certain ids as "can post at will." all others posts are not visible until the moderator approves them ( and are never made visible if he does not )

I dont know if invision (this board software) supports anything like this but we can look around if it comes to that.

I can't say i have a strong sense of whether this will fly but it might not be hard to find out.

[qwery_hi]

jdonn, on Feb 14 2009, 08:07 PM, said:

In response to some of the concerns, I think the idea is to only restrict based on the original post in a thread. Anyone could reply or ask a question. It's not perfect but it's definitely an improvement.

No one is saying certain people don't have the right to start a thread or post in general. The forums (in general) would simply function better if posts were filed to the proper (specific) forum, that's all.

Sounds good.

But are we making the implicit assumption that only A/E can ask the interesting questions in Bridge?

[hanp]

I think this idea has a lot of potential, but it also has some serious dangers.

I am not sure how to deal with the issue of hurt feelings. Say I wanted to join and Josh would have to tell me I wasn't welcome, that could be unpleasant for both of us. I think it might work if you couldn't apply for it but the "selectors" would invite regular posters that they think could benefit the expert discussion. I think one could start a small subforum with just a small group of already very active "experts".

Perhaps a more serious issue is the concerns voiced by jillybean, heavydluxe and others: it should remain possible for anybody to ask questions, not only to start threads, but also to ask clarification to the comments of the experts. If the only way for me to ask a question was to start a new thread in a different forum that the experts might not even look at, then that would be a very bad situation.

So how can we have a discussion between experts only, and at the same time allow questions from anybody?

I think this is easily possible, but I'm not sure how to explain my idea because I'm almost computer illiterate. Maybe an example of how I imagine this would be easiest:

JLOL

Dear expert colleagues. I was wondering what you would open with ♠AJ10xx ♥KJ10xx ♦Ax ♣x. Thank you for your thoughts!

[14 reactions, click here to view]

mikeh

An excellent question worthy of discussion young jlol. We have enough highcards to open 1S (highest from two 5-card suits) but I am worried about my rebid. What is the vulnerability?

[32 reactions, click here to view]

Frances

Agree with mikeh.

[5 reactions, click here to view]

jdonn

WTF??? 1S WTP!!!

[3 reactions, click here to view]


In this format I imagine that the experts would be very willing to react to the comments and questions that are asked in response to their own reactions.

[qwery_hi]

What we really need is a reddit* style upvote/downvote of posts. Perhaps we can create a sub-reddit for expert-bridge?

* www.reddit.com
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit

[csdenmark]

This Forum lives from and is driven from questions about cultural problems. Alert- and cheating are the most frequent topics. Very much of it is americans with lack of knowledge of rules and habits applied to by poles, french, italians, swedes and turks. Therefore the questions and accusations to come up.

This Forum has been living for many years. In the same period several similar Forums based in one culture have been shut down. They cannot produce these kind of questions and quarrels and they simply dry out.

The question is:
- Who are the experts to explain about polish methods?
- Who are the experts to explain about french methods?
- Who are the experts to explain about swedish methods?
- Who are the experts to explain about turkish methods?
- Who are the experts to explain about italian methods?

[Walddk]

hanp, on Feb 15 2009, 08:41 PM, said:

I think it might work if you couldn't apply for it but the "selectors" would invite regular posters that they think could benefit the expert discussion.

This is basically how it works as far as vugraph commentators are concerned. Most people are invited, but we also leave the door open for applicants. Some are accepted, some are not. It's not always an easy task to judge, but when in doubt we give most applicants a chance or two.

That procedure has been working quite well (imo) for about 7 years.

Roland

[matmat]

csdenmark, on Feb 15 2009, 02:09 PM, said:

The question is:
- Who are the experts to explain about polish methods?
- Who are the experts to explain about french methods?
- Who are the experts to explain about swedish methods?
- Who are the experts to explain about turkish methods?
- Who are the experts to explain about italian methods?

who cares?

if the forum works well all the relevant posters will filter in.

Besides, i expect that:
- a lot of the discussions will not be related to systems, but rather cardplay
- a lot of the bidding problems will be system independent (make slam try or not? show shortness or not? etc.)
- there aren't that many experts on the methods mentioned above on the forums anyway.