[kenberg]

Playing 2/1:
1H-2D-2S-3C

How seriously should the club bid be taken? If the answer is "Not very" then I have some other questins as we shall see.

Now I give you a hand, but in fact it is not as it stands very useful for the discussion.

Scoring: IMP

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It is definitely not my purpose to criticize the 3C bid by N. He agrees w/o question that 2N was the bid that he should have chosen.

But now consider:

Scoring: IMP

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It appears to me that 6C needs 3-2 rumps and no bad luck elsewhere: Win the opening trump lead with the ace, heart to ace, heart ruff, spade back, heart ruff low, spade back, heart ruff with last (high) heart, D ace, D ruff, draw last trump, take the third spade:

Three spades. two red aces, three ruffs, four clubs, that's twelve.

If the 3C bid is not to be taken seriously, just how do we get to 6C when N has clubs.

So forget the actual hand. Partner agrees that 2N was the right bid. I am concerned with my own options after 3C, given that partner might have been dealt the second hand.


For those interested, we ended in 5NT. As the cards lie (both black suits are 3-3) both 5C and 5S can be made, perhaps even 6S. 5N is more of a stretch. No one wants to be in any of those contracts obviously.

Added: It's true that over a 2N rebid I would bid 3C with my hand so maybe that's the answer. Still, it seems to me that since people sometimes get dealt diamonds and clubs, the 3C bid can be useful as showing clubs. Then, over 2S, 3D is a forcing bid w/o a club stop and 2N is a forcing bid with a club stop.

[Fluffy]

After 2 spades you are in the slam way, I think best is this:

2NT genreal bid, pattern out please
3♣ 5-5
3♦ good 6 carder
majors naural

after 2NT

3♣ 3 clubs at least then partner bids 3 diamonds RELAY, and opener bids 3♥/3NT or 4♣ to show 6430 5431 or 5440 (you can even use 3♠to show a singleton diamond honnor)

3♦ 3 diamonds
3♥ 64
3♠ 4522 with low clubs
3NT 4522 with club stop.

[JLOL]

3C is natural for me. Find a bid with 3253 and no club stopper.

[quiddity]

With the given South hand, maybe it's better to just rebid 2H. Partner will let you know on the next bid if you have a black-suit fit. Asking North to rebid 2NT with his good 6-card diamond suit and singleton heart seems strange - why not 3D? I would tend to play 3C as 4th suit, possibly artificial, and for the second hand the road to 6C (if one exists) would start with 1H-2D; 2H-3C.

Jlol, is this particular auction special or do you play all 4th suit bids in 2/1 auctions as natural?

[rbforster]

Standard 2/1 methods aren't that good at making slam tries in the 4th suit.

[kenberg]

I appreciate the responses. Follow-up:

Justin: I also was wondering about, say, 1S-2D-2H-3C. And for that matter, 1H-2D-2S-3C-? Is there anything that would be recognized simultaneously as clubs and rkc? I sort of think not, unless 4C shows four clubs and partner then shows the number of keys outside of Ds. Too specialized for the casual partnership.

Quiddity: I considered, over 3C, bidding 3N, 4C,5C, and 6C. I considered 3H later, but I am not so fond of it. If I had been dealt six hearts, four spades, and extra values it seems to me I would bid 1H-2D-2S-3C-3H.


Rob: I agree, which is why I thought the post worthwhile. The situation and the sequence is far from rare. Here I am, not for the first time, wondering if a call is natural. After the 3C, if partner is bidding naturally and I bid 3N I may just have given up on an easy slam. If partner is bidding artificially and I raise clubs, that's not so good either. On the general principle that with an agreement in place you can at least handle some hands, I figured I would get some input on who plays what.

And finally Fluffy: An interesting treatment. In this particular partnership, right now, we are at a more primitive stage where simplicity and basics must be the guiding principle. For example, I like my 2S bid to show extra values but I am not positive partner took it so. We are still at the stage of whether 3C does or does not show clubs. Refinements later. But I also had started thinking maybe 3C over 2S, if it shows clubs, should be 5-5 since over 2N I would show my four clubs anytime I am 4=5=0=4.

Again, I appreciate the responses.
Ken

[Codo]

Ken, as long as you are in "a more primitive stage where simplicity and basics must be the guiding principle", do not care about getting to 6 club with a 4504 hand opposite a xx64 hand.

If you do not find this 6 club, you will be in the overwhelming majority in any tournement you want to play.

When you are ready to have so great tools like Fluffy, take his advice.

[kenberg]

Codo, on Feb 11 2009, 04:10 AM, said:

Ken, as long as you are in "a more primitive stage where simplicity and basics must be the guiding principle", do not care about getting to 6 club with a 4504 hand opposite a xx64 hand.

If you do not find this 6 club, you will be in the overwhelming majority in any tournement you want to play.

When you are ready to have so great tools like Fluffy, take his advice.

Sounds like good advice from you also, thanks.

[Fluffy]

Now I reread I laguh at myself, because this tratment is obviously too specific.

But this came to my mind, because I have been recently trying to develop a set of rules and meta agreements, thant let responder bid cheapest bid asking for pattern out whenever opener shows a 5-4. This was a perfect example of how it would work.

I have it workng already after a reverse: 1♣-1♠-2♥-2♠ is a relay asking partner to pattern out. The fact that 1m opening denis 6-5 helps.

There are problems on some sequence where you also have to define strenght somehow.