[Al_U_Card]

Is he black or is he white?
Is he christian or is he muslim?
Enemy of terrorists or friend of terrorists (Arabs or Israelis, take your pick)

He is the head honcho, politically at least, but how much power to influence and change the world does he really have? How much (more) influence can the Clintons (and their establishment/entitlement) have on the future?

[Winstonm]

It is fairly interesting (to me, anyway) that not long after I espoused that the military-industrial complex appeared to be the real power in the U.S., Jeff Huber at Military.com hit upon a similar theme:

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Kosovo was the war that no one could say had defended America or had protected its interests overseas.  At that point in history, the military's full time mission shifted from national defense to self-preservation, and the purpose of the relatively new "information warfare" specialty went from supporting armed conflicts to fabricating arguments for having them. 

Who does DoD defend - us or themselves? Would the DoD present a misleading picture to the President?

[WarrenL]

1. Half-black and half-white.
2. Intelligent atheist who aligned himself with Christianity in his twenties when he realized the edge it would give him in gaining power in America (both locally in gaining the confidence of the Chicago black community, and nationally as his ambitions grew).
3. No particular ideology regarding Middle Eastern affairs but tries to balance pragmatism with staying in power (always a difficult task in politics).
4. Lots of power due to the previous boss' consolidation of the powers of the office and the current honeymoon period.
5. Clintons - no opinion

[luke warm]

Winstonm, on Jan 28 2009, 11:01 AM, said:

Who does DoD defend - us or themselves? Would the DoD present a misleading picture to the President?

since if they would do so it would be a giant conspiracy, i think you should look into it

[jdonn]

WarrenL, on Jan 28 2009, 12:30 PM, said:

2. Intelligent atheist who aligned himself with Christianity in his twenties when he realized the edge it would give him in gaining power in America (both locally in gaining the confidence of the Chicago black community, and nationally as his ambitions grew).

Wow, where did you come up with that gem? Got anything to back it up?

[Lobowolf]

It would explain his maxxed-out popularity with people like Bill Maher, who called him a "perfect" candidate on the same show on which he went on one of his "Christians are idiots" tirades.

I'm inclined to take him at his word regarding his faith; however, I don't think he's above (?!) professing a false belief IF it's an electability deal-breaker. If I had to take my best guess as to whether he's REALLY against gay marriage or just knows that at this point in American society, a pro-gay-marriage candidate isn't electable, I'd go with the latter.

[Winstonm]

luke warm, on Jan 28 2009, 12:31 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Jan 28 2009, 11:01 AM, said:

Who does DoD defend - us or themselves?  Would the DoD present a misleading picture to the President?

since if they would do so it would be a giant conspiracy, i think you should look into it

Come on, Jimmy. You know there are no r-e-a-l conspiracies.

A lone knife-man stabbed Julius Caesar.
The Shah of Iran was democratically elected by the faithful.
Those 19 guys each acted independently and all 19 at the same time decided out-of-the-blue to hijack 4 planes.
No one ever claimed Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

This is the police. Put down your tinfoil hat and slowly back away.....

[awm]

A survey of candidates for Illinois State Legislature from 1996 had Obama indicating that he was strongly in favor of gay marriage. It seems likely that he has backed away from this issue for political reasons, and that his fundamental position on the matter hasn't really changed. He also endorsed the "no on proposition eight" side in California, although without explicitly endorsing gay marriage (his statement was something about not wanting discrimination enshrined in a state constitution).

From reading Obama's book, I don't know that he was ever really an atheist. Keep in mind that there are a very large number of Americans who don't follow the explicit teachings of an established religion, but who do believe in God. This would seem to be Obama for much of his life -- note that his grandparents were Christian and his mother seems to have been very spiritual (in a hippy sort of way) without subscribing to a specific church. His particular church membership was not chosen for political reasons (in fact it turned out to be a political liability) but I think the point is that Obama views religion more as being about helping others and "living a good life" than being about following the specific tenants of a religious book (or specific views of some minister). This also correlates well with the religious views of his mother and grandparents.

While there is a tendency to view everything Obama (or any politician) does as political calculation, I don't think this is necessarily true. The choices Obama made in his youth (becoming a community organizer, joining a church) were done at a time when he didn't have serious aspirations for national office. Certainly when he was running for president he did and said some things for political expediency, but even when he wrote his first book in the early nineties there were a lot of thoughts and actions recorded that were much more likely to be political liabilities than politically helpful.

[Lobowolf]

awm, on Jan 28 2009, 02:12 PM, said:

A survey of candidates for Illinois State Legislature from 1996 had Obama indicating that he was strongly in favor of gay marriage. It seems likely that he has backed away from this issue for political reasons, and that his fundamental position on the matter hasn't really changed. He also endorsed the "no on proposition eight" side in California, although without explicitly endorsing gay marriage (his statement was something about not wanting discrimination enshrined in a state constitution).

From reading Obama's book, I don't know that he was ever really an atheist. Keep in mind that there are a very large number of Americans who don't follow the explicit teachings of an established religion, but who do believe in God. This would seem to be Obama for much of his life -- note that his grandparents were Christian and his mother seems to have been very spiritual (in a hippy sort of way) without subscribing to a specific church. His particular church membership was not chosen for political reasons (in fact it turned out to be a political liability) but I think the point is that Obama views religion more as being about helping others and "living a good life" than being about following the specific tenants of a religious book (or specific views of some minister). This also correlates well with the religious views of his mother and grandparents.

While there is a tendency to view everything Obama (or any politician) does as political calculation, I don't think this is necessarily true. The choices Obama made in his youth (becoming a community organizer, joining a church) were done at a time when he didn't have serious aspirations for national office. Certainly when he was running for president he did and said some things for political expediency, but even when he wrote his first book in the early nineties there were a lot of thoughts and actions recorded that were much more likely to be political liabilities than politically helpful.

While his church ultimately became a political liability on the national stage, it may have been an asset when his political forum was more localized; I don't know enough about local politics in that region to say either way.

While there are many Americans who don't follow the explicit teachings of an established religion, but who do believe in God, this seems to me (at least if we're talking about the same group of people) to not be in Obama's style. The people I take this to apply to don't go to church or claim to be Christians, specifically; it's a much more nebulous and personal thing. In Obama's case, I would assume that either the Christianity is genuine, or it's political. I don't see a vague, general theism translating to apparent Christianity to the extent of joining a Christian church, designating a Christian minister as a spiritual advisor, etc.

[jdonn]

awm, on Jan 28 2009, 02:12 PM, said:

While there is a tendency to view everything Obama (or any politician) does as political calculation, I don't think this is necessarily true. The choices Obama made in his youth (becoming a community organizer, joining a church) were done at a time when he didn't have serious aspirations for national office. Certainly when he was running for president he did and said some things for political expediency, but even when he wrote his first book in the early nineties there were a lot of thoughts and actions recorded that were much more likely to be political liabilities than politically helpful.

I agree with that. People are so freaking cynical in believing everything has a motive. I understand he is a politician and will campaign based on somewhat changing viewpoints for expediency (such as gay marriage), but even religion is something people can change their minds about throughout their life. I did.

[Lobowolf]

jdonn, on Jan 28 2009, 02:49 PM, said:

I agree with that. People are so freaking cynical in believing everything has a motive. I understand he is a politician and will campaign based on somewhat changing viewpoints for expediency (such as gay marriage), but even religion is something people can change their minds about throughout their life. I did.

I agree with this, too. I do think, though, that the best measure is his own words and actions, so if we're not attributing it to political expediency, then shouldn't we assume that a guy who joins a Christian church, designates a Christian spiritual advisor, and quotes Corinthians at his inauguration is, in fact, a Christian, and not a generally theistic spiritual kinda guy?

[Al_U_Card]

Is it "normal" the percentage of ex-Clintonites amongst his appointments? (Normal in the sense that they are in the political landscape and because of affiliation would be likely choices based on their experience more than on their connections.)

[jdonn]

Lobowolf, on Jan 28 2009, 02:57 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 28 2009, 02:49 PM, said:

I agree with that. People are so freaking cynical in believing everything has a motive. I understand he is a politician and will campaign based on somewhat changing viewpoints for expediency (such as gay marriage), but even religion is something people can change their minds about throughout their life. I did.

I agree with this, too. I do think, though, that the best measure is his own words and actions, so if we're not attributing it to political expediency, then shouldn't we assume that a guy who joins a Christian church, designates a Christian spiritual advisor, and quotes Corinthians at his inauguration is, in fact, a Christian, and not a generally theistic spiritual kinda guy?

No, you shouldn't make any assumptions about his religion.

[Lobowolf]

Well, he's SAID he's a Christian in numerous places, e.g. his website, last week's Newsweek interview..I mean, I guess taking his word for it is an assumption on some level, but no more than believing his stated position on any political issue. It's gotta be MORE of an assumption to think he's not a Christian.

It's a little odd that during the campaign, it was Obama supporters most vocally proclaiming that he's a Christian, and now it seems they're not. I guess "inclusiveness" (or even just the perception of inclusiveness) is more important than electability now.

It's funny that nobody seems to want him to be a Christian now. My wacky cousin, who hates him, is still convinced he's a Muslim, and my secular progressive friends, who generally love him, are still convinced he's a spiritual, quasi-theistic guy with no particular religion.

I don't really care; I'm not a Christian, and (but?) I don't think it has any bearing on how good a president he'd be. I do have to admit, though, I find it all interesting.

[kenberg]

Al_U_Card, on Jan 28 2009, 10:16 AM, said:

Is he black or is he white?
Is he christian or is he muslim?
Enemy of terrorists or friend of terrorists (Arabs or Israelis, take your pick)

He is the head honcho, politically at least, but how much power to influence and change the world does he really have? How much (more) influence can the Clintons (and their establishment/entitlement) have on the future?

Is he black or white?
Let me suggest an answer by telling you about myself. My birth mother was pure Norwegian, my birth father half Norwegian, half English. Ah those lusty Norwegian farm girls. I was adopted at birth. My father came to this country from Austria [He thought Austria, his early life was difficult enough that he was not sure], my maternal grandfather came from Denmark. So: Am I Norwegian, Austrian, Danish, or ...? My answer would tend to be: Put down whatever you choose if you feel you must fill in a blank, but don't expect me to care.
We are not at that point with race, not by a long shot, but Obama moved us all a large step in that direction.

Christian or Muslim? People still ask this? Did you watch the inauguration? I suspect the Christian religion is important to Obama but that this does not mean he consults religious figures on real life topics. There are a lot of people like this. My father, for example. Believe Jesus was the Son of God? Sure. Go to church on Sunday? Not if the fish are biting.

Enemy of terrorists? I would say so, at least if they are planning on messing with the US. Duh.

How much power to change the world? Probably less than he thinks. Reality sucks.

[helene_t]

Al, couldn't you open a topic about chemistry next time? Or even better, bridge?

[Winstonm]

One of the better arguments that I heard against an Obama Presidency was that his lack of experience would make him reliant upon advisors and therefore maleable to the whims of others. It looks to me as if Robert Gates may be doing some of his own agenda planning:

Quote

When U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates accused Iran of "subversive activity" in Latin America Tuesday, it raised the question whether he is trying to discourage President Barack Obama from abandoning the hard-line policy of coercive diplomacy toward Iran he has favored for nearly three decades.

Quote

In making a new accusation against Iran, just as Obama is still considering his diplomatic options on Iran, Gates appears to be reprising his role in undermining a plan by President George H. W. Bush in early 1992 to announce goodwill gestures to Iran as reciprocity for Iranian help in freeing U.S. hostages from Lebanon.

As the CIA-shill for Reagan's Soviet-busting, Gates has a history of not allowing reality to interfere with an agenda.

[jdonn]

Lobowolf, on Jan 28 2009, 05:18 PM, said:

Well, he's SAID he's a Christian in numerous places

Oh good. No need to make assumptions in that case.

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It's a little odd that during the campaign, it was Obama supporters most vocally proclaiming that he's a Christian, and now it seems they're not.

That was only proclaimed in defense of accusations that he was a Muslim. Now that he is not campaigning it doesn't matter any more. I don't find that odd.

Quote

It's funny that nobody seems to want him to be a Christian now.

I don't know what you mean by that. I want him to be whatever he is, and I'm a pretty big Obama supporter.

[Lobowolf]

Lobowolf, on Jan 28 2009, 05:18 PM, said:

Well, he's SAID he's a Christian in numerous places

Quote

Oh good. No need to make assumptions in that case.

Sometimes I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, dryly funny, or just making plain statements of fact. I mean, it's certainly an assumption that he's telling the truth, but it seems like a reasonable one to me.

Quote

It's a little odd that during the campaign, it was Obama supporters most vocally proclaiming that he's a Christian, and now it seems they're not.

Quote

That was only proclaimed in defense of accusations that he was a Muslim. Now that he is not campaigning it doesn't matter any more. I don't find that odd.

True...nothing "odd" per se about talking out of both sides of one's mouth when an election is in play. Poor choice of words.

Quote

It's funny that nobody seems to want him to be a Christian now.

Quote

I don't know what you mean by that. I want him to be whatever he is, and I'm a pretty big Obama supporter.

Most immediately, I was referring to Adam's post, and also to yours where you say that I "shouldn't assume" that he's a Christian, when Obama has said it often and recently, and references to his Christian faith are on his own website; it does seem as though you're fairly inclined to leave outs for his possible non-Christianity. Aside from this thread, most of my non-Christian friends who support Obama seem to have the attitude that the Christian thing is just something he says for the cameras.



Going back to your agreement with Adam's post (or a portion thereof, anyway), I thought the suggestion (which I agree with) was that it's cynicism to assume that his Christianity is for political expediency. I would think that the natural thing is to take him at his word (which I do). As a non-Christian, I think his inclusiveness comments were refreshing, and he seems to share my belief that founding fathers did a nice job of leaving religion out of their work, for the most part (e.g. the First Amendment - have whatever God you want - being in direct conflict with the First Commandment - have no other Gods before me).

All of which sounds like he's a Christian who knows that there are a whole bunch of other Christians in the country, but who doesn't want to run the place like a theocracy. Works for me.

[awm]

I recommend reading this article if interested in Obama's religious beliefs. This is from the time of his election to the US senate, but I doubt it's changed too much since then.

His family was fairly religious, but didn't attend church regularly and didn't really indoctrinate him into a specific brand of christianity. He wasn't really religious in the church-going sense until after graduating from college, and his originally joining the church had a lot to do with charitable works and not so much to do with an overwhelming belief.

He believes in being tolerant of other faiths and doesn't like the idea that one religion has a "monopoly" on truth (big contrast to the last president). He also believes that a lot of harm has been done in the name of religion through the years.

He believes that living your life in a good way and having good values is more important than the specifics of religious faith and practice. He thinks that too many people try to use their faith to insulate themselves from criticism and debate.

Seems like a very sensible outlook on the world to me.