[gnasher]

Scoring: IMP

---

pass-pass-1♠-dbl
?

2NT would show a high-card raise. A jump shift would be a fit bid. A four-level jump shift can be whatever you want it to be.

[JLOL]

It's my style to bid 4S with this hand type rather than 2N. It's true we could miss a slam but I view that as quite unlikely, and I like the pressure it puts on the opps. People (me!) will double this auction pretty aggressively, and sometimes you get a 5H bid from someone. You also don't reveal anything about partner's hand and they're leading blind, and you don't let LHO bid something to help partner lead.

I am a strong believer in this kind of bid.

[OleBerg]

2NT. Not staying out of game.

Disagree with JLOL, I want to communicate with partner.

[xx1943]

JLOL, on Feb 5 2009, 01:08 PM, said:

It's my style to bid 4S with this hand type rather than 2N. It's true we could miss a slam but I view that as quite unlikely, and I like the pressure it puts on the opps. People (me!) will double this auction pretty aggressively, and sometimes you get a 5H bid from someone. You also don't reveal anything about partner's hand and they're leading blind, and you don't let LHO bid something to help partner lead.

I am a strong believer in this kind of bid.

agree 100% to every argument.

Slam is sooooo far with these bad trumps and partner's honors under the gun.
East must have values outside ♥ (♠k or ♦A or ♣KQfor his vulnerable double.

You may miss a slam in 1% of situations you make this bid, but you'll gain in many situations were opponents get in trouble after this preempt.

Cheers

Al

[mcphee]

4S works for me. It helps to know partners 3rd hand openings a bit when faced with these hands, yet I have zero interest in a slam search even though some days you make. I like to mix up this jump, it comes up a lot where you have a nice raise to game of a major in this position and it's nice to have the opps facing some uncertainty as to whose hand it is. As Reese was fond of saying, if all pre-empts are rather weak they become a dull sword.

[rogerclee]

2N, but only because I'm not scared of a sacrifice at these colors.

[jdonn]

2NT but certainly if I was going to bid game I would just do it now, however I don't want to hang partner for opening in 3rd seat.

I agree with the points made by JLOL in general, I'm just too chicken to force to game on this hand.

[xx1943]

mcphee, on Feb 5 2009, 03:00 PM, said:

...I like to mix up this jump, it comes up a lot where you have a nice raise to game of a major in this position and it's nice to have the opps facing some uncertainty as to whose hand it is. As Reese was fond of saying, if all pre-empts are rather weak they become a dull sword.

Great argument. Exactly my point. Many thanks for this post. I can't say it so precise because my English is too bad

Many thanks

Al

[Phil]

JLOL, on Feb 5 2009, 06:08 AM, said:

It's my style to bid 4S with this hand type rather than 2N. It's true we could miss a slam but I view that as quite unlikely, and I like the pressure it puts on the opps. People (me!) will double this auction pretty aggressively, and sometimes you get a 5H bid from someone. You also don't reveal anything about partner's hand and they're leading blind, and you don't let LHO bid something to help partner lead.

I am a strong believer in this kind of bid.

I think this is interesting viewpoint. I confess 4♠ didn't make my short list.

When I looked at this I thought it was a 2N wtp, but also considered 4♥ (overbid opposite 3rd seat green) and 3♦ (too weird).

However, I'm sticking with 2N.

4♠ might lure a 5♥ call on your left, especially playing against me. You'd love to double that, but pard isn't expecting this kind of defense and may bid 5♠ in front of you at these colors with some shape.

4♠ more likely will get a *shrug* from LHO followed by two more passes. Pard will struggle and might make it, but probably won't if he was planning on signing off over 2N. Pard will also know what to do if they compete to 4♥ later on.

4♠ just seems to introduce a lot of variance into an auction where pard may end up doing the guessing. Further, I don't want to throw away 6 IMPs by getting too high, even though 4♠ may garner a 590.

Note that I didn't even mention slam. Its pretty remote with a vul TOx on my right, and this collection.

If we had hearts instead of spades, then I like 4♥ a lot better for the pressure aspect.

I am willing to listen however

[JLOL]

Well if you don't think the hand is worth a game force I can't argue with 2N. For me it is a clear GF...maybe because I don't play with myself lol. But something like KQJxx xxx Axx xx will produce game and partner is never gonna bid it. On top of that the opps probably make 4H when he has that. I would also always bid 4S if the opps bid 4H so that's another reason to bid it now (although obviously they are not just always bidding 4H lol).

[jdonn]

JLOL, on Feb 5 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

Well if you don't think the hand is worth a game force I can't argue with 2N. For me it is a clear GF...maybe because I don't play with myself lol. But something like KQJxx xxx Axx xx will produce game and partner is never gonna bid it. On top of that the opps probably make 4H when he has that. I would also always bid 4S if the opps bid 4H so that's another reason to bid it now (although obviously they are not just always bidding 4H lol).

Isn't that just game on a finesse (and trumps not 4-0 offside)? Not trying to be nitpicky, just want to clarify a hand quite that bad probably won't have us regret not forcing to game. Granted if partner has that the opponents can easily be making 4♥ as you said, but then again they might have five losers too.

[kenrexford]

gnasher, on Feb 5 2009, 06:01 AM, said:

A four-level jump shift can be whatever you want it to be.

I want a 4-level jump to 4♥ on this hand to show ♠8xxx ♥x ♦KJ10x ♣AJxx. Problem solved!

Seriously, though, I kind of like a descriptive bid here. I'm not as worried about five-level competition when we have spades and are favorable as I am about missing slam.

We can easily have a good slam here (partner with something boring like ♠AKJxxx ♥xxx ♦Axx ♣x). I think a decision of "what now?" after a 5♥ sacrifice is remote at these colors.

I think the diamond 10 leads me slightly in the direction of a fit-bid, despiute having only five diamonds, largely because I think the odds favor the diamond finesse as working.

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Feb 5 2009, 01:50 PM, said:

gnasher, on Feb 5 2009, 06:01 AM, said:

A four-level jump shift can be whatever you want it to be.

I want a 4-level jump to 4♥ on this hand to show ♠8xxx ♥x ♦KJ10x ♣AJxx. Problem solved!

Hehe uhhhh, problem not solved if you don't want to force to game on this hand, for the same reason that using 7NT to show ♠8xxx ♥x ♦KJ10x ♣AJxx would not solve the problem!

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on Feb 5 2009, 01:55 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Feb 5 2009, 01:50 PM, said:

gnasher, on Feb 5 2009, 06:01 AM, said:

A four-level jump shift can be whatever you want it to be.

I want a 4-level jump to 4♥ on this hand to show ♠8xxx ♥x ♦KJ10x ♣AJxx. Problem solved!

Hehe uhhhh, problem not solved if you don't want to force to game on this hand, for the same reason that using 7NT to show ♠8xxx ♥x ♦KJ10x ♣AJxx would not solve the problem!

Well, true that is. I forgot that this was a third-seat opening. Blech!

Now I think again. I want methods here. I'd really like to bid 2♥ to show a promising raise, with a forcing call. I can always re-evaluate later.

[mikeh]

I have no strong preference in terms of 4♠ or 2N: I suspect that at the table I would bid 2N, because I want to involve partner.. he does have room to make a gametry, but there remains a real risk that we miss game anyway.. but I tend to be conservative.. so honesty compells me to make this admission.

2N also may allow them to bid 4♥, but that doesn't have to be bad... partner may be able to hit that, since we show some defence, or he may be able to 'save' on the weak shapely hand on which we'd miss game (after my 2N) if LHO were to pass.

4♠ is, I suspect, more often the winner... but not because they bid 5♥. LHO is a passed hand and we have a lot of hcp..LHO didn't open a weak 2... of course, red v white he may be pulling in a bit on his weak two bids.. but there is a good inference that the opps hold no more than 9 hearts. I think 4♠ is probably the winner for the other points made by justin. Now, if I can only remember that at the table

[mikestar]

I prefer 4♠ assuming our partnership's expected minimum 3rd seat opener is similar to Justin's. 2NT is enough opposite an opening that might be substantially weaker.

Slam requires partner to have solid trumps and substantial extra high cards--the chances of this is DNZ (damn near zero) in this auction. When slam is out of the question, blasting to game whenever it is reasonably likely to be right tends to do well--you will make all of the games you should and not a few that you shouldn't.

[kenrexford]

mikestar, on Feb 5 2009, 08:11 PM, said:

Slam requires partner to have solid trumps and substantial extra high cards--the chances of this is DNZ (damn near zero) in this auction. When slam is out of the question, blasting to game whenever it is reasonably likely to be right tends to do well--you will make all of the games you should and not a few that you shouldn't.

I don't understand why slam is deemed so remote here.

I provided, earlier, a rather bland hand for partner:

♠AKJxxx ♥xxx ♦Axx ♣x

With that 12-HCP hand, Opener seems odds-favored to make 12 tricks. That's a boring hand, where our combined HCP count is only 20. Add in the diamond Queen and the heart Ace, to get up to a boring 26 HCP combined, and 7♠ is probably making also, with overkill. The closer to 26 we get, the more likely a diamond finesse (if needed) succeeds.

This is nowhere close to a zero-chance slam situation.

[dake50]

I wonder if without X, do I have Drury follups to show this hand?

With X showing likely minor honors under me, don't care if X has Heart honors, only Spade honors over partner worry --but Spade honors in t/o dbl?

Clear my 'stuff' is well placed. Quite likely the 'right' single on this auction. Some points with X, so no slam. I like 4S immediate. In my partnership, MY hand is the wide ranging in DT, offense. Ie. 1S is limited even more as 3-seat 1C allows more generous good-playing +good controls Spade openers than 1-,2-seat. (The upper responses to 1C by passed hand do not exist, so leave more space for the middling responses)

[mtvesuvius]

4♠ for me, the pre-emptive value of this is so huge, that it will outweigh the few times we can make slam...

[Winstonm]

I refuse to punish my partner for a lead directing 3rd suit bid so I won't bid 4S, though in theory I agree with Justin. 2NT for me, too. I am not concerned at all with slam at this point.