[Echognome]

Scoring: IMP

1♠ - 2♥
2♠* - 3♣
3♠ - ?

---

*Shows 6 spades

How now?

[mike777]

3nt

no problem yet.

[jdonn]

3NT. 4NT should be natural, but a lot of people wouldn't know it, and anyway 17 with a spade void and bad clubs is not good enough.

[Fluffy]

I raise partner to game

[mtvesuvius]

3NT. If partner pulls to 4♠ I pass.

[FrancesHinden]

I also raise partner.

But I should point out I am doing this in a style where 3D over 3C would ahve been fourth suit forcing. So partner went out of his way to bid spades for a third time rather than make a neutral fourth suit bid (or give preference to hearts).

He didn't jump to 4S over 3C, so I expect something like

QJ1098xx
x
Kxx
Ax

[kenrexford]

IMO, too much focus on what partner has is somewhat misplaced. The focus should be tempered by what partner will do if I bid 3NT with various hands. In other words, I'm not really concerned about languishing in a bad 3NT if partner has a hand with which he will correct to 4♠. I only dislike 3NT opposite hands where partner would pass 3NT.

[FrancesHinden]

kenrexford, on Jan 26 2009, 02:59 PM, said:

IMO, too much focus on what partner has is somewhat misplaced. The focus should be tempered by what partner will do if I bid 3NT with various hands. In other words, I'm not really concerned about languishing in a bad 3NT if partner has a hand with which he will correct to 4♠. I only dislike 3NT opposite hands where partner would pass 3NT.

I disagree. Partner will not pull 3NT is he has exactly the hand that he has shown in the bidding so far, so it's important to think about what partner has, and what he has shown.

If partner has already shown 7+ spades, a minimum opening, an inability to insist on spades as trumps (no 4S bid over 3C) and no interest in either of our suits then he will pass 3NT on exactly that hand.

From his point of view, we heard him bid spades three times - the third time taking up a lot of bidding space - and still we bid 3NT. That means 3NT could be the right spot, either because there are four top losers, or because responder has 9 tricks without needing spades, and risks conceding too many trump tricks in 4S. I would expect partner to pull 3NT to 4S extremely rarely.

3NT could still be the right spot, I realise that. But I disagree with those who bid 3NT on the assumption that if 4S is right, partner will always pull - because he shouldn't.

[jdonn]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 26 2009, 10:34 AM, said:

If partner has already shown 7+ spades, a minimum opening, an inability to insist on spades as trumps (no 4S bid over 3C) and no interest in either of our suits then he will pass 3NT on exactly that hand.

Perhaps the failure to bid 4♠ over 3♣ is based on something other than lack of desire to insist on spades, such as strength, or maybe a desire to play in clubs if we bid them one more time.

Quote

3NT could still be the right spot, I realise that. But I disagree with those who bid 3NT on the assumption that if 4S is right, partner will always pull - because he shouldn't.

If partner wants to play 4♠ opposite a void, he will always pull. I mean, does 3NT not even exist as a bid here?

[Phil]

3N. This hand isn't good enough for a quant 4N. If my clubs were slightly better and my diamonds slightly worse, I'd try 4♣.

I think Josh's inference about "no 4♠ call" is valid. I think pard has some bits and pieces outside of spades and either hearts or clubs will be a decent trick source and will serve as an entry to cash a spade or two.

[whereagles]

3NT. I trust pard will pull if prepared to play opposite a void.

[Echognome]

I bid 4♠ at the table and that's where we ended. On retrospect I like 3NT, in part because we don't have any spades and partner can correct if he feels playing opposite a void is fine and in part because it gives partner a little more room (as you will see might have helped here).

Here were the hands.

---

Table 1
1♠ - 2♥
2♠ - 3♣
3♠ - 4♠
All Pass

Table 2
1♠ - 2♥
2♠ - 3♣
3♠ - 3NT
4NT - 6♣
All Pass

I don't think either table particularly sparkled in the bidding, but it was a bit disappointing at our table to have 34 combined and not even sniff at slam.

[FrancesHinden]

Funny, because to my mind North has a perfect 3D fourth suit forcing over 3C.

Perhaps both tables were playing that as natural.

[skjaeran]

I play 3♣ showing 5 there, with that agreement north have an easy raise to 4♣.

[Echognome]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 26 2009, 12:30 PM, said:

Funny, because to my mind North has a perfect 3D fourth suit forcing over 3C.

Perhaps both tables were playing that as natural.

At our table, I would presume that 3♦ would have been natural.

But for the sake of argument, how would you prepose it continue?

3NT?

Then 4♣?

I mean I understand it's difficult seeing both hands, but when does either hand show their extra values, noting that either hand could have had at least an ace less for their bidding.

[whereagles]

There's so much that could be done... but anyway.

[orlam]

whereagles, on Jan 26 2009, 04:54 PM, said:

There's so much that could be done... but anyway.

Thanks for your post, very helpful.

[whereagles]

Why don't you just mind your own business?

[kenrexford]

I think a better bid after 3NT for Opener is 4♣. Why not show the club support?

[brianshark]

On the given auction, I agree that 3NT seems like the normal bid. Partner can bid spades again if he is short on entries and his spade suit is good enough to play opposite a void.

I agree with Frances that pard should have bid 3♦. I'm inclined to think it should be bid even if it would be natural because it will elicit more information about the hand out of partner since opener has lots of extras and should have slam very much in mind.

It seems that both hands underbid because of concern about the misfit. My opinion is that north is the better judge that the hands have some communication, firstly because you are holding AQx in pard's 2nd suit and secondly because when pard bids 3NT (with or without a 3♦ bid, then pard knows there is some communication in the ♦ suit as well.

This is evident in the second auction where north knows of this communication to go with at least a 4-3 club fit, bid on, and they found a decent slam. In the first, I have sympathy for north's pass because the 4♠ bid could be on as little as a singleton, with not much in ♦s and most values wasted in ♥s and to bid on could risk a minus.

Oh, and after 3NT, I have no strong opinions on whether north should bid 4♣ or 4NT. But I think 4NT is fine because responder will more typically have a 5431 shape hand and maybe he will expect a 4 card suit off opener? Yes maybe opener could then bid 4♣ right away but maybe he wanted to know if pard has ♦ values.