[Fluffy]

S - N
1♠-1NT* forcing
3♣-3♠
4♣-4♦
4NT

[TylerE]

Responder showed a limit raise with spades.

[kfay]

Not obvious.

But I'm pretty sure it's spades.

TylerE, on Jan 16 2009, 04:55 PM, said:

Responder showed a limit raise with spades.

Did you miss the jump, Tyler?

[brianshark]

It's interpretable. 3♠ is 2-card preference. 4♣ could be natural and looking for a ♣ game, 4♦ could be no club support or extra ♠ support, but you have a few ♦s and 4NT could be, no support for ♦s so let's play NT.

Or it could be cue-bids and keycard for ♠s.

*shrugs*

[rogerclee]

spades

[helene_t]

I would count ♠K as a keycard here. Responder could be short in clubs but not in spades. I think opener should still suggest 6♣ just in case.

[HeavyDluxe]

Spades, though I think it's definitely not crystal clear.

[jdonn]

I'm willing to accept spades as the answer, but I don't think it's clear. Just what would responder do with Kx xxxx Axxx QJx or something?

[JLOL]

Good question, easts 4D bid is ambiguous about whether it is coming in clubs or spades. I would have taken it for clubs but its really not clear at all and I have no idea.

[mtvesuvius]

I think it's spades here, but this could easily be intended as a signoff or for clubs.

*More shrugs*

[peachy]

Responder showed EITHER a weak hand with possible false preference to spades OR a great limit raise, maybe based on doublefit. If the 1NT response contained a "normal" three-card limit raise that is shown via direct 4S over 3C. Life is too hard if 3S can be just about "anything" both in strength and in shape/support.

In the given auction, responder likely has weak hand, long diamonds, and a doubleton spade.

[jdonn]

Two people in a row who think it might be natural? Responder didn't bid 3♦ over 3♣ you know...

[whereagles]

In US style: I don't know.
In French style: spades, 100%.

[Phil]

Totally ambiguous.

4♣ confirmed that 3♣ was real. This is important because 3♠ is frequently a doubleton. I think its important for opener to pattern in case responder is 2=3 in the blacks. 4♦ just marks time with the fit to be revealed later.

Whats with these posters that think 4♠ over 3♣ shows the limit raise? Do people still play that way?

[peachy]

Phil, on Jan 17 2009, 03:19 AM, said:

Totally ambiguous.

4♣ confirmed that 3♣ was real. This is important because 3♠ is frequently a doubleton. I think its important for opener to pattern in case responder is 2=3 in the blacks. 4♦ just marks time with the fit to be revealed later.

Whats with these posters that think 4♠ over 3♣ shows the limit raise? Do people still play that way?

If not that way, then - when will responder who had the three card limit raise, be able to show he had the three card limit raise?

[jdonn]

peachy, on Jan 17 2009, 03:29 AM, said:

Phil, on Jan 17 2009, 03:19 AM, said:

Totally ambiguous.

4♣ confirmed that 3♣ was real. This is important because 3♠ is frequently a doubleton. I think its important for opener to pattern in case responder is 2=3 in the blacks. 4♦ just marks time with the fit to be revealed later.

Whats with these posters that think 4♠ over 3♣ shows the limit raise? Do people still play that way?

If not that way, then - when will responder who had the three card limit raise, be able to show he had the three card limit raise?

I believe it's very easy over any bid but 4♣, responder bids anything he wants at all (except possibly 4♣ over a 3NT bid).

[gwnn]

I believe I read somewhere in these forums about the idea of

1M-1NT
3x-4M

showing a limit raise, which looks clumsy but at least it makes the other sequences run smoother?

In that case this could unambiguously show clubs.

[peachy]

jdonn, on Jan 17 2009, 03:34 AM, said:

peachy, on Jan 17 2009, 03:29 AM, said:

Phil, on Jan 17 2009, 03:19 AM, said:

Totally ambiguous.

4♣ confirmed that 3♣ was real. This is important because 3♠ is frequently a doubleton. I think its important for opener to pattern in case responder is 2=3 in the blacks. 4♦ just marks time with the fit to be revealed later.

Whats with these posters that think 4♠ over 3♣ shows the limit raise? Do people still play that way?

If not that way, then - when will responder who had the three card limit raise, be able to show he had the three card limit raise?

I believe it's very easy over any bid but 4♣, responder bids anything he wants at all (except possibly 4♣ over a 3NT bid).

I don't understand what you mean here.
When/how will responder limit his hand? Does opener not need responder to limit his hand? How many more rounds will responder be forced to bid with xx spades, xx clubs and a bare minimum? Should he deny diamond ace over 4C with xx-xxx-Axxxxx-Jx and bid 4S? Should he hide spade Qx over 3C with Qx-xxx-KJxxxx-xx and bid 3D?

Getting deeper in the mud here, but hope you won't mind helping out and giving your opinion on these questions.

[Winstonm]

The logical idea is clubs. We have to remember that the 3C jump can be artificial and therefore responder in a pinch is going to take a false preference to the major suit. When opener bypasses 3N and patterns in clubs, how can responder now show delayed good club support except by either raising clubs or cue bidding?

[jdonn]

peachy, on Jan 17 2009, 07:33 AM, said:

When/how will responder limit his hand? Does opener not need responder to limit his hand? How many more rounds will responder be forced to bid with xx spades, xx clubs and a bare minimum?  Should he deny diamond ace over 4C with xx-xxx-Axxxxx-Jx and bid 4S? Should he hide spade Qx over 3C with Qx-xxx-KJxxxx-xx and bid 3D?

I have no idea what the questions you are asking have to do with showing a limit raise after a jump shift. I said "over any bid BUT 4♣ it's easy to show a limit raise", and you are asking questions about what responder should do over 4♣. And the limit raise is already within a tight range, it doesn't need to be further limited if it can be shown.

In general I think it's a very good idea for responder to bid 3♦ over 3♣ with 6 diamonds and 2 spades. It leaves opener a lot of room, he can bid spades next anyway and we are free to raise him, we can belong in diamonds, etc. But if you have chosen to bid 3♠, presumably since you have lousy diamonds, then why would you want to show the diamonds later?