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Sequences after Reverses What's forcing?

#1 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2009-January-14, 13:50

This came up in the B/I forum but was never really addressed, so I thought I'd get some opinions here. Suppose that you are playing something like Ingberman over reverses. I'm not considering "high reverses" or "competitive reverses" or the like here. Here are a bunch of questions:

(1) Would you assume that ingberman is on if responder's first call was 1NT? For example:

1-1NT-2... is 2NT a forcing weakness-signal or a natural bid? Is 3 forcing? What are 3 and 3 in this auction given that responder cannot really hold those suits?

(2) Suppose that responder makes the artificial weakness-showing bid. What do opener's rebids show now? Which are forcing? For example:

1-1-2-2! (ingberman, weak hand, denies a 5th )...

Is opener's 2NT sort of automatic on a minimum reverse, or does it promise some spade cards?
If opener rebids his first suit, does this show six? Is it forcing? Is this different in an auction like 1-1-2-2NT where 2NT was the weakness signal instead of the 4th suit?
If opener rebids his second suit, does this guarantee 5-6 or more? Is it forcing?
What is opener's raise of responder's first suit? If natural (1345-ish), is it forcing? Does it show more than min reverse?
What is a raise of the fourth suit by opener?

(3) Suppose that responder rebids his suit, showing five or more and creating a one-round force, but not necessarily a game force. For example:

1-1-2-2 (5+ forcing one round)

If opener rebids 2NT, is it forcing?
If opener rebids his first suit, is it forcing? Does it show six-plus?
If opener rebids his second suit, is it forcing? Does it show a 5-6 necessarily?
If opener bids the fourth suit, what does this show?
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#2 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2009-January-14, 14:05

awm, on Jan 15 2009, 08:50 AM, said:

(2) Suppose that responder makes the artificial weakness-showing bid. What do opener's rebids show now? Which are forcing? For example:

1-1-2-2! (ingberman, weak hand, denies a 5th )...

Is this really Ingberman?

Ingberman Convention

This reference (and others) suggests that 2NT is the weakness bid in Ingberman on the auction you gave.
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#3 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-January-14, 14:11

awm, on Jan 14 2009, 02:50 PM, said:

(1) Would you assume that ingberman is on if responder's first call was 1NT? For example:

1-1NT-2... is 2NT a forcing weakness-signal or a natural bid? Is 3 forcing? What are 3 and 3 in this auction given that responder cannot really hold those suits?

I don't know what is standard. I think best (I'll assume 1NT was like 6-9, since if it's 8-10 we must be in a game force) would be 2NT and 3 are natural NF, anything else is a game force and showing general value location, including raising opener's major.

Quote

(2) Suppose that responder makes the artificial weakness-showing bid. What do opener's rebids show now? Which are forcing? For example:

1-1-2-2! (ingberman, weak hand, denies a 5th )...

Is opener's 2NT sort of automatic on a minimum reverse, or does it promise some spade cards?
If opener rebids his first suit, does this show six? Is it forcing? Is this different in an auction like 1-1-2-2NT where 2NT was the weakness signal instead of the 4th suit?
If opener rebids his second suit, does this guarantee 5-6 or more? Is it forcing?
What is opener's raise of responder's first suit? If natural (1345-ish), is it forcing? Does it show more than min reverse?
What is a raise of the fourth suit by opener?

Again not sure what is standard, but I think the best agreement would have 2NT and 3 of opener's minor as NF, everything else as forcing. If 2NT is the weakness showing bid I definitely prefer 3 required on a minimum and everything else forcing. For all you know partner has Kxx xx x QJT9xx or something. But on the auction where a suit is responder's weakness bid then I just don't think he has enough info to know when to pass or not if 2NT is required by opener on any minimum.

Quote

(3) Suppose that responder rebids his suit, showing five or more and creating a one-round force, but not necessarily a game force. For example:

1-1-2-2 (5+ forcing one round)

If opener rebids 2NT, is it forcing?
If opener rebids his first suit, is it forcing? Does it show six-plus?
If opener rebids his second suit, is it forcing? Does it show a 5-6 necessarily?
If opener bids the fourth suit, what does this show?

2NT nonforcing.
3 nonforcing, shows 6+.
3 forcing, somewhat artificial since 3 is not forcing.
3 forcing, shows 5-6.
3 nonforcing.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#4 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2009-January-14, 14:17

Perhaps another one worth mentioning is this auction:

1 - 1 - 2 - 2NT (weakness)

Does opener's 3 bid here just show a minimum, or say something about club length? Certainly responder could have a lousy 4-6 hand and just want to play 3, but then if opener has 1453 it is actually possible you might have a club game on such a hand. What if opener has 2470 or the like? Still 3?

What does opener's 3 here show? Does it indicate club shortage or even club length (paradox style)? Does it show extras? Is it forcing?

These matters are made more complicated by the fact that some (many) will reverse lighter on shapely hands. It is all very well to open 1 and reverse into hearts on a fairly minimum 5-6 hand, but do we now want opener to rebid 3 over the 2NT weakness signal on both a 5-6 13-count and a 5-6 18-count?

jdonn said:

awm said:

1-1NT-2...

I don't know what is standard. I think best (I'll assume 1NT was like 6-9, since if it's 8-10 we must be in a game force) would be 2NT and 3♣ are natural NF, anything else is a game force and showing general value location, including raising opener's major.


I had a recent discussion with Mike Savage (one of LA's local experts) about this issue and I think it was the only time I ever convinced him of anything, so I will mention it here. In this particular type of auction (1-1NT-Reverse) you are virtually guaranteed of a fit in clubs. Responder will not have a four-card major or a six-card diamond suit, so the only pattern where you might not have 3+ is 3-3-5-2 precisely. And with such a hand (especially a fairly weak such hand) wouldn't we usually reply 1 in any case? Thus there is really not that much need to be able to play in exactly 2NT. It seems more useful to have 2NT as a forcing call to distinguish between good and bad "club" hands and make 3 forcing.
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#5 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2009-January-14, 14:51

I take the opposite view on that last auction, Adam - 3 NF, everything else GF.
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#6 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2009-January-14, 16:27

1) 1-1NT-2-?

Josh raises a good point. Many people (including me) prefer to play that 1NT in this sequence shows 8-10 balanced and no four card major (and most often, not four or 5 diamonds, IMO). So even if we play Ingberman, 2NT cannot be that, because it is designed to show a hand (<8 points) that responder cannot have. I think 2NT should be natural, denying a club fit. 3 should show a fit. Since the opener has shown at least 17, and responder has 8-10, the auction is forcing (and probably should be forcing to game or 4). I don't think 3, 3 or for that matter 3 exists in this auction, unless perhaps 3 shows 3 spades (a Moysian fit) and 3 or 4 rotten clubs (he can't have two, for then he'd be 4-4 in the red suits, and would not have responded 1NT, but rather 1).

2) 1-1-2-2

I agree with Wayne - this isn't Ingberman, although I supppose it's "something like Ingberman".

Playing Ingberman, 2 is forcing, and may be 4-4 in the majors. Heck, maybe it's FSF. :P 2NT is still the weakness bid.

Playing Ingberman, after 1-1-2-2NT, opener would accept the relay with a minimum, so 3 shows that. 3 shows at least 5 diamonds, so 6-5, and extra values, and is forcing.

What is a raise of the fourth suit? Depends what the fourth suit bid means.

If you're going to agree 2 is "Ingberman" (or something like it) then I suppose you have to also discuss and agree what the follow ons mean, since this isn't "standard" Ingberman. I suppose as much as possible bids should mean the same as in "standard" Ingberman, which would make 2NT the minimum showing acceptance, and 3 forcing. But maybe I'm just being lazy. :D

3) 1-1-2-2

As I undestand Ingberman, the partnership must have game values after this rebid, so I think that anything opener bids below game is forcing, and probably natural. Mind you, I think at this point if opener doesn't bid 3, he denies a spade fit. If he bids the fourth suit, he's saying he doesn't know where the auction should be going. Probably he has no diamond stopper, or secondary spade support.

It seems easier to me to just play Lebensohl over reverses. B)
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#7 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-January-14, 16:48

Adam, 1 p 1NT showing 8-10 is a dumb auction to begin with. You can make a good case that a 2NT rebid by opener doesn't even exist. I agree with you that 2NT is not needed, but I don't believe a forcing 3 bid is needed either. So whatever you do is probably fine.

I have long thought 1 1 2 2NT 3 should be the bid showing all minimums. It's not just that responder could have long clubs. It's that you have no way to show a game force with diamonds if 3 is not forcing. The bid you want to use, '4th suit', is monopolized as also showing a minimum and is not forcing. Of course you could bid 3 on all minimums instead but that seems clearly worse.

That is all why transfers are so much better than leb here anyway.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#8 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2009-January-14, 16:58

I remember some discusion similar to this long ago for the sequence 1x-1NT-reverse.

If I recall correctly Fred said that he'd bid 2NT to play with a hand given. I asked him if he didn't play 2NT as weak, and he explained why after 1NT it was poor bridge.

I don't recall if a forcing 2 for club support was avaible on the sequence, only remember Fred's words hitting me between the eyes :P.
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#9 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2009-January-14, 17:38

Fluffy, on Jan 14 2009, 10:58 PM, said:

I remember some discusion similar to this long ago for the sequence 1x-1NT-reverse.

If I recall correctly Fred said that he'd bid 2NT to play with a hand given. I asked him if he didn't play 2NT as weak, and he explained why after 1NT it was poor bridge.

I don't recall if a forcing 2 for club support was avaible on the sequence, only remember Fred's words hitting me between the eyes :P.

Fred still agrees with himself here (though I would call 2NT "natural" as opposed to "to play").

Having a natural 2NT available is extremely useful.

Having an artificial negative available is completely useless (and the exact range of 1NT does not matter). Just bid 3C if you are willing to play there opposite a minimum reverse.

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#10 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2009-January-14, 18:00

My understanding is that 1-1NT essentially contains three hand types:

(1) Bad flat hands, such as 3343/3334/(23)44. Some people respond 1 on these.
(2) Moderately good flat hands, again 3343/3334/(23)44 but something like 8-10 high.
(3) Hands with 5-(332) which are "in between" a preemptive raise and a limit raise.

Some people also like to respond 1NT with some hands including five diamonds, but typically these will be good hands rather than bad ones and more akin to type 2 hands than anything else.

It is nice to distinguish between these hand types. Most of the time the first hand type belongs in a partscore (you don't have game values opposite a minimum reverse). The second hand type usually belongs in 3NT, but it can be worthwhile to perform some kind of stopper check to avoid playing 3NT with three small opposite a singleton or the like. The third hand type will frequently offer some play for 6 opposite opener's reverse, but 3NT still might be the best spot and it is worthwhile to explore cautiously.

It is not clear to me that any of these hand types particularly want to play in 2NT. The only candidate for such would be group 1, since group 2-3 are enough to force game in any case. But looking at these patterns, you have at least an eight-card club fit and often nine. While it is certainly imaginable that we would rather play in 2NT on 23 high than play in our 8-9 card minor suit fit, despite one of the two hands being shapely, it just doesn't seem all that likely to me. It is quite valuable to be able to distinguish between hand 2 (really just checking stoppers for 3NT) versus hand 3 (actually want to explore for slam if opener is interested).

Certainly there are many ways to allocate bids, but it seems definitely wrong to me to play both 2NT and 3 as non-forcing signoffs with hand type 1. Doing this cramps your space to distinguish between types 2 and 3 without substantial benefit.
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#11 User is offline   fred 

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Posted 2009-January-14, 18:55

awm, on Jan 15 2009, 12:00 AM, said:

Certainly there are many ways to allocate bids, but it seems definitely wrong to me to play both 2NT and 3 as non-forcing signoffs with hand type 1. Doing this cramps your space to distinguish between types 2 and 3 without substantial benefit.

Agree there is a strong case to play 2NT as forcing. Even without that explicit agreement, in practice it would be strange for opener to have a hand for which he would bid 2S and then want to Pass 2NT.

But regardless of whether or not 2NT is implicitly or explicitly forcing, it should certainly be natural (and not an artificial negative).

2NT means "I have stoppers in the unbid suits". Often that is all opener needs to know to bid 3NT. Often knowing that this is not the case is enough for opener to know that 3NT is out of the picture.

That makes 2NT far too useful a natural bid to give up (especially considering the alternative is not useful at all).

I think you are distracting yourself with your consideration of hand types. Use the force, Luke.

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#12 User is offline   MFA 

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Posted 2009-January-14, 21:41

awm, on Jan 14 2009, 02:50 PM, said:

This came up in the B/I forum but was never really addressed, so I thought I'd get some opinions here. Suppose that you are playing something like Ingberman...

Stopped reading here.
What the **** is ingbertmann?
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#13 User is offline   OleBerg 

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Posted 2009-January-15, 00:32

MFA, on Jan 15 2009, 05:41 AM, said:

awm, on Jan 14 2009, 02:50 PM, said:

This came up in the B/I forum but was never really addressed, so I thought I'd get some opinions here. Suppose that you are playing something like Ingberman...

Stopped reading here.
What the **** is ingbertmann?

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#14 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2009-January-15, 02:31

MFA, on Jan 14 2009, 10:41 PM, said:

awm, on Jan 14 2009, 02:50 PM, said:

This came up in the B/I forum but was never really addressed, so I thought I'd get some opinions here. Suppose that you are playing something like Ingberman...

Stopped reading here.
What the **** is ingbertmann?

Ingberman is the use of Lebensohl after a reverse, just like after interference of a 1NT opening. It basically means that after 1x-1y; 2z (reverse):

- 3 level bids are natural and forcing to game
- 2NT is a weakness bid commanding opener to bid 3 (unless he has GF values or ...). After the 3 bid, responder can pass or sign off at the three level.
- There is no consensus about available bids at the two level, but it depends on the type of jump shifts you are playing. As an example: 1-1; 2-2 should be forcing when playing weak jump shifts. But IMO, it should be non forcing when you don't play weak jump shifts (to show the weak jump shift type of hand).

Rik
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#15 User is offline   MFA 

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Posted 2009-January-15, 07:45

Trinidad, on Jan 15 2009, 03:31 AM, said:

MFA, on Jan 14 2009, 10:41 PM, said:

awm, on Jan 14 2009, 02:50 PM, said:

This came up in the B/I forum but was never really addressed, so I thought I'd get some opinions here. Suppose that you are playing something like Ingberman...

Stopped reading here.
What the **** is ingbertmann?

Ingberman is the use of Lebensohl after a reverse, just like after interference of a 1NT opening. It basically means that after 1x-1y; 2z (reverse):

- 3 level bids are natural and forcing to game
- 2NT is a weakness bid commanding opener to bid 3 (unless he has GF values or ...). After the 3 bid, responder can pass or sign off at the three level.
- There is no consensus about available bids at the two level, but it depends on the type of jump shifts you are playing. As an example: 1-1; 2-2 should be forcing when playing weak jump shifts. But IMO, it should be non forcing when you don't play weak jump shifts (to show the weak jump shift type of hand).

Rik

Thank you!
Michael Askgaard
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#16 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2009-January-15, 16:25

#1 Yes, keep it simple
3C is forcing, 3H showes values, 3S showes 3cards with values

With kind regards
Marlowe
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