[TimG]

Both vul, IMPs, you hold ♠Kxx ♥A ♦KJ98x ♣9xxx and see:

(2♥)-3♣-(4♥) to you.

If this were a poll, I'm guessing that nearly everyone would simply bid 5♣ and comment that they'd like to make a slam try, but have no way to safely do that below 5♣ -- sometimes preempts work.

But, it also occurs to me that 4N might be a way to make a slam try, a sort of last train bid. I'm wondering if established partnerships commonly have something available here that the rest of us might not know about (or bother to spend time on because of the low frequency).

Tim

[gnasher]

I'd play 4NT as diamonds + secondary clubs.

With the given hand I might bid 6♣. Holding the ace of their suit provides reassurance that partner probably doesn't have much there, so there must be a fair chance that 6♣ makes, and they may take a save anyway. Some of the time, of course, thy won't save and we will have two certain losers - sometimes preempts work.

[JLOL]

I'm not sure how common it is but I think it is at least somewhat common in expert circles to play 4N in this auction as a slam try for clubs, and I play that with my most regular partner.

What 4N means in auctions like this depends on what suit your partner bid, and what suit the opps are bidding. The most fundamental rule my partnerships have is that 4N is never keycard in auctions like this; if I have the choice of a slam try or just keycard I would always prefer to have a move that involves partner available. But sometimes you want 4N available to find the right suit also; getting to the right fit must be priority number 1.

Here are the other possible auctions where they have bid to 4x and we have no cuebid available between game and slam (and obviously it applies when they open a weak 2 instead of a weak 3).

(3D) 4C (4D) 4N = This one is a slam try in clubs, playing it for the majors wouldn't make much sense since you are going past 4M anyways. If you want REALLY detailed agreements then play 4N starts all hands that want to set clubs, so 5D shows both majors with slam interest .

(3S) 4C (4S) 4N = Now since 4S forces us to the 5 level already 4N is a "2 places to play" type of hand. A lot of people like to say "but I play responsive doubles here, I don't need 4N as takeout." That is fine, but partner will pass your double normally even if it is takeout. It would be silly to double with 66 in the reds or whatever.

(3S) 4H (4S) 4N = Again 4H is above both of the unbid suits so this is 2 places to play, but the good news is we can combine that with a slam try in hearts by bidding 5H over 5m.

(3S) 4D (4S) 4N= You could play this one always takeout with clubs and hearts, but I prefer to also allow for hands that want partner to pick between 5 of a red suit (commonly 62 in the reds, but other shapes possible). So if partner bids 5C and I correct to 5D that's what it shows. The reason you can't combine shapely takeout with slam try in partners suit in this auction like in the one above is because partner needs to be able to pick hearts over 4N, which would propel you to slam automatically if you have a slam try in diamonds.

The tricky ones are:

(3H) 4D (4H) 4N = This one is tricky because we could bid 4S with a black 2 suiter rather than bid 4N and force us to 5S with a spade fit, so it seems like 4N should be a diamond slam try right? The problem is we could have a "choice" between clubs and diamonds that doesn't want to do something committal like 5m, or we could have a spade/club 2 suiter that is too strong to bid 4S, or we could have a huge disparity in suits like 5 7 or 5 6. I won't even comment on what I think the best way to play this is, just make some agreement with your partner and you should be fine.

The same logic applies to (3H) 4C (4H) 4N, which is the auction you gave. You might want to bid 4N rather than 4S with certain spade/diamond 2 suiters, and you might want to bid 4N with certain hands that have long diamonds and a partial club fit, or very long diamonds and 3 clubs. Or you might want to bid 4N with a club slam try...

So to sum this up: When they jam you like this you have to prioritize and then use your space based on those priorities. Generally the priority is going to be finding the right fit/being able to compete when you have the other suits and a shapely hand. This is the more important than having a slam try because when you have a slam try you can guess what to do, generally bidding slam with the best part of your slam try range and bidding game with the worst part, and you are going to land on your feet. It's not like having a slam try will give you 100 % accuracy, and lacking one will give you 0 % accuracy.

On the other hand, if you have to guess a FIT at the five level you are risking much bigger disaster, and a larger percent of the time that it occurs; losing double game swings or big penalties or going plus a small amount instead of a game swing.

However, in some auctions it doesn't make sense for 4N to show the other suits since it drives you to the 5 level instead of the 4 level, and in those auctions you can use 4N as your slam try. And in some auctions it's not clear which of the 2 will be more useful because one suit is higher and one is lower. Clearly though in none of these auctions is keycard more useful.

[mtvesuvius]

LOL @ JLOL!




-------------------------------------
LOL

[jdonn]

I'm not even particularly tempted to make a slam try even if I could. The ace is better in another suit than it is in hearts, I have an 11 count with no club honors, and things may not break well. Plus there are stronger hands than this where I wouldn't want to force to slam so I would have to make a slam try on those.

[sathyab]

Speaking of overcoming pre-empts, this hand generated some discussion in yesterday's compact KO in the Monterey regional.

Your partner passes, Red vs White, your RHO bids 3s. You have a decision to make, with xx KTxxxx Axxx A.

[gnasher]

gnasher, on Jan 12 2009, 12:41 AM, said:

With the given hand I might bid 6♣.

In the cold light of day that seems a rather bigger overbid than it did last night. I think a slow 5♣ is enough.

[whereagles]

Pard is longish in hearts (xx or xxx), so he rates to have a decent overcall (you only stretch with short hearts).

If I can trust his bid, I'll try 4NT + some nr. of clubs. If I can't, I'll stick to 5♣ only.

[Apollo81]

jdonn, on Jan 11 2009, 09:13 PM, said:

I'm not even particularly tempted to make a slam try even if I could. The ace is better in another suit than it is in hearts, I have an 11 count with no club honors, and things may not break well. Plus there are stronger hands than this where I wouldn't want to force to slam so I would have to make a slam try on those.

I agree with Josh, I would not make a slam try even if I could.

[P_Marlowe]

We play 4NT as some kind of good-bad, you can find this
suggestion in Marshal Miles book "Competive bidding in
the 21st century".

Another reason for having such a bid is, to be able to create
a Forcing Pass sitiuation, because I would doubt that without
such an additional agreement 5C creates one, and sometimes
they bid 5 over 5 and you need to decide, what to do.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Fluffy]

I don't have any agreement for this sequece, 4NT would then be minors or simply regular blackwood, I think regular blackwood.

To make a slam try or not depends on the kind of junk partner uses to overcall with. Being solid (specially with no heart shortness) I'd try for slam if I could.

[TimG]

Fluffy, on Jan 12 2009, 07:24 PM, said:

I don't have any agreement for this sequece, 4NT would then be minors or simply regular blackwood, I think regular blackwood.

To make a slam try or not depends on the kind of junk partner uses to overcall with. Being solid (specially with no heart shortness) I'd try for slam if I could.

How would you do that?

[rogerclee]

I don't agree with Josh, I think this hand is just good enough to make a slam try if 4N is available as one.

[Fluffy]

I could not Tim, I would bid 5♣ as everyone else.