[FrancesHinden]

You hold

Scoring: MP

---

You have an uncontested auction:

2C - 2D
2H - 2S
3H - ?

2C = game forcing or good 22+ balanced
2D = negative or waiting (you don't play 2H as a double negative)
2H = hearts or FG balanced
2S = relay (denies a few fairly obscure hand types)
3H = game forcing with primary hearts. No second suit, and not suitable for a 3NT rebid which would show a balanced hand with 6 hearts suggesting 9 tricks is easier than 10.

Now what?

[whereagles]

3NT. Why is this a problem?

Don't want to get pard excited. If he moves on, it will be at his own risk. If pard could have 4 spades, there might be a problem, but, with no 2nd suit, there's really not much to it. At least I think so.

[mtvesuvius]

3NT. If partner cannot stand playing notrump, he can pull to 4♥. Any other move is at his own risk!

[hrothgar]

Mark me down for 4♥

From the sounds of things, partner rates to hold either a 6331 or a 7321.

3NT might work out well if partner's stiff is in Diamonds, but 2/3rds of the time, its going to be in a black suit. The opps rate to cash 4+ tricks from the get go.

I'm all for going for the higher scoring partial, but this is a case where I'm expecting to take a lot more tricks in Hearts than in NT...

[helene_t]

agree with Richard.

[Codo]

I already showed a negativ bid, so 3 NT should paint a quite nice picture: Some values here and there, no heart fit.

Yes 4 Heart may be better, but maybe partner will bid it in that case.

[Apollo81]

3NT

[Phil]

3N.

4♥ sounds too encouraging and I don't want to get partner excited. While I have a little 'extra', it's in the form of a few quacks.

Two questions for Frances:,

1. Have you discussed with Jeffrey the difference between 3♥ and 4♥ (over 2♠)?

2. Would pard's 4m over 3N be natural or a self-cue? This may depend on what a direct 3♥ is over 2♦ I think.

[jdonn]

If 3NT isn't the right bid then I've really got to go back to the drawing board.

[FrancesHinden]

Phil, on Jan 12 2009, 04:04 PM, said:

Two questions for Frances:,

1. Have you discussed with Jeffrey the difference between 3♥ and 4♥ (over 2♠)?

2. Would pard's 4m over 3N be natural or a self-cue? This may depend on what a direct 3♥ is over 2♦ I think.

I wasn't playing with Jeffrey; and I haven't discussed these with him because we don't play Kokish. However, with the partner I was playing with here.:

- 4♥ over 2♠ is rare, but it would show a (sub)minimum 2C opening with 7+ hearts

- a self cue(ish), because partner could have bid 3m naturally over 2S to show hearts and a minor. By self cue I mean a trial bid rather than just a first round control i.e. partner would prefer to bid an AQx fragment rather than a void.

A direct 3♥ over 2♦ would set trumps and ask for first/second round controls (immediate cue = first round control, 3NT = second round control somewhere, sign-off = no controls). Partner will take this slower route either because he is interested in alternative contracts (e.g. 3NT, or if we broke the Kokish relay), or because he wants to know more about our hand than just whether we have controls or not.

[nige1]

[quote name='FrancesHinden' date='Jan 12 2009, 08:11 AM']

Scoring: MP

You have an uncontested auction:
2C - 2D
2H - 2S
3H - ?
2C = game forcing or good 22+ balanced
2D = negative or waiting (you don't play 2H as a double negative)
2H = hearts or FG balanced
2S = relay (denies a few fairly obscure hand types)
3H = game forcing with primary hearts. No second suit, and not suitable for a 3NT rebid which would show a balanced hand with 6 hearts suggesting 9 tricks is easier than 10.
Now what?[/quote]IMO 4[he] = 10, 3N = 8, Something absurd = 2.
One of our queens is likely to be of use in 4[he] I worry about 3N because partner says he doesn't have a hand suitable for 3N. Suppose he has [sp]AKJ [he]KQJxxx [di]AKx [cl]x or a similar hand with the black suits reversed.

---

[jdonn]

Nigel, if partner holds that hand why would he pass 3NT? What is he playing us for where 4♥ is not either about as good or far better? Even if we had a club stopper like KJxx he wouldn't want to pass in most cases.

[mikeh]

I bid 3N, but I lack any strong conviction.

Question: have I shown weakness yet? My guess, based on the OP, is that I haven't. Would 4minor here be a cue bid in support of hearts?

Anyway.. as others have stated... 3N allows partner to pull, and he won't be under any misunderstanding about my lack of support, while 4♥ is committal.

'Flexible' is the expert's excuse.. 3N.. it's more flexible than 4♥

[P_Marlowe]

4H.

3S is out of the question, since I assume, that p denied
a 4 card spade suit.

So it is either 3NT or 4H, I would go with 4H.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[bid_em_up]

4H on the basis that one or both of our Queens will be working in 4H, but we could be wide open in clubs in 3N. Plus, from what I have read of the explanations, it would appear that partner has 6 or 7 non-solid hearts, so we rate to have to lose one, if not two heart tricks in NT. This may give the opponents enough tempo to establish their suit, but in 4H, partner might be able to ruff their long suit tricks.

jmoo.

[nige1]

jdonn, on Jan 12 2009, 01:56 PM, said:

Nigel, if partner holds that hand why would he pass 3NT? What is he playing us for where 4♥ is not either about as good or far better? Even if we had a club stopper like KJxx he wouldn't want to pass in most cases.

Fair enough; my fault for putting up an aunt sally, for Josh to knock down; but IMO it isn't easy to construct a ♥ single-suiter for partner, with which he happily passes 3N now; but earlier judged unsiuitable for 3N. Perhaps Josh is brave enough to have a go.

[jdonn]

I don't think it matters if he would never pass 3NT, it's just a matter of describing our hand type. We have scattered honors and no heart support at all, 3NT is the way to send that message. If we bid 4♥ who is to say partner is finished bidding?

In any case, I didn't take the explanation to mean he had promised a shortage somewhere. Just that he wasn't notrumpy. I think he will have a lot of balanced hands that can pass 3NT.

[Cascade]

hrothgar, on Jan 13 2009, 03:15 AM, said:

Mark me down for 4♥

From the sounds of things, partner rates to hold either a 6331 or a 7321.

3NT might work out well if partner's stiff is in Diamonds, but 2/3rds of the time, its going to be in a black suit. The opps rate to cash 4+ tricks from the get go.

I'm all for going for the higher scoring partial, but this is a case where I'm expecting to take a lot more tricks in Hearts than in NT...

Against that 4♥ will encourage partner in ways that 3NT will not.

[nige1]

hrothgar, on Jan 13 2009, 03:15 AM, said:

I'm all for going for the higher scoring partial, but this is a case where I'm expecting to take a lot more tricks in Hearts than in NT...

jdonn, on Jan 12 2009, 05:25 PM, said:

I don't think it matters if he would never pass 3NT, it's just a matter of describing our hand type. We have scattered honors and no heart support at all, 3NT is the way to send that message. If we bid 4♥ who is to say partner is finished bidding? In any case, I didn't take the explanation to mean he had promised a shortage somewhere. Just that he wasn't notrumpy. I think he will have a lot of balanced hands that can pass 3NT.

Cascade, on Jan 12 2009, 05:43 PM, said:

Against that 4♥ will encourage partner in ways that 3NT will not.

Jdonn's and Cascade's theories are interesting but would they rebid 3N with say ♠9xxx ♥x ♦8xxx ♣7xxx
On the contrary, I feel that a case can be made for 3N to be (natural and) stronger than 4♥ although I'm not sure that a couple of queens is strong enough.

[hrothgar]

Do we get to see the 2♣ opener?