[jillybean]

Dealer: North Vul: NS Scoring: IMP

♠ KJ4 ♥ J932 ♦ 4 ♣ AKQ74

2/1 Auction:
West North East South

 -     Pass  Pass  1♣
 1♠    2♦    Pass  ? 

What do you bid here? Do you have an agreement that 2nt shows no extras?

[Cascade]

Yes 2NT shows no extras - partner forced you to bid you have to do something with a minimum.

However with a four-card major I bid that.

So 2♥ it is.

[jillybean]

So 2♥ doesnt show extras either.

[Cascade]

Partner has forced the auction to the two-level with 2♦ so a simple bid in a new suit below the cheapest level you can bid your original suit just shows a minimum.

[Codo]

Wayne is a bridge teacher, I am not, so better listen to him. But I disagree about the 2 Heart bid. To me it shows extras.

These are my reasons:

1. It is a reverse and I would like to keep the system simple and let a reverse always show extras.
2. Partner did not double 1 Spade, so he normally does not have 4 Hearts. He may have a kind of 2461 shape, but this is not so common that I would care about it.
3. Partner is a passed hand, so it is far from clear whether 2 Diamond was forcing or not.
4. I would hate it, when I need to jump around with game forcing strength. This will work with these suits, but after pass (pass) 1♣ (1♥) 2♦ (pass) 3♠ you have quite big problems to reach 3 NT when it is right.


I think that 2 NT does not show extras, so this would be my choice.

[paulg]

2♥ is not a reverse.

It shows the same values as 1♣-1♦-1♥.

I think it is close whether 2♥ or 2NT is the better bid here.

Paul

[Hairy_Scot]

Codo, on Jan 6 2009, 09:14 PM, said:

Wayne is a bridge teacher, I am not, so better listen to him. But I disagree about the 2 Heart bid. To me it shows extras.

These are my reasons:

1. It is a reverse and I would like to keep the system simple and let a reverse always show extras.
2. Partner did not double 1 Spade, so he normally does not have 4 Hearts. He may have a kind of 2461 shape, but this is not so common that I would care about it.
3. Partner is a passed hand, so it is far from clear whether 2 Diamond was forcing or not.
4. I would hate it, when I need to jump around with game forcing strength. This will work with these suits, but after pass (pass) 1♣ (1♥) 2♦ (pass) 3♠ you have quite big problems to reach 3 NT when it is right.


I think that 2 NT does not show extras, so this would be my choice.

As well as being a bridge teacher, Wayne also seems to be an english language expert, a mathematician, a statistician, and who knows what else. He is also adept at hijacking threads. But let's not go there.

Aside from point 1, I would agree with CODO.
I can see no point in bidding 2♥, so 2NT it has to be.

[Fluffy]

One of the reasons why I play NFB is because this area is so dark, if we bid 2NT, partner will have to decide if he wants to play aprtscore or game, not being able to invite.

Not sure if 2♥ is a great idea, partner didn't double 1♠, if he has strong with diamonds and hearts he is gonna bid 3♥ over 2NT I think.

[peachy]

Fluffy, on Jan 6 2009, 03:51 AM, said:

One of the reasons why I play NFB is because this area is so dark, if we bid 2NT, partner will have to decide if he wants to play aprtscore or game, not being able to invite.

Not sure if 2♥ is a great idea, partner didn't double 1♠, if he has strong with diamonds and hearts he is gonna bid 3♥ over 2NT I think.

Why would he bid 3H over 2NT? If you don't bid 2H now, partner may not want to look for a heart contract if he has four hearts when you have bypassed 2H - IMO bypassing 2H denies holding four hearts. After the forcing 2D bid, 2H cannot show extras (nor does it deny extras either). It is the equivalent in strength of 1C-1D-1H, without interference from opponents.

[Walddk]

I agree with Wayne and Paul; 2♥ is not a reverse on this auction. Opener has been forced to bid above the cheapest rebid of his opening suit. That is not the case for a normal reverse, for example ...

1♣ - 1♠
2♥

Opener could have rebid 2♣ to show a minimum hand. When he does not, he promises extra values (reverse). The auction in this thread is different ...

1♣ (1♠) 2♦ pass
??

Partner's 2♦ has prevented opener from rebidding 2♣, and 3♣ becomes the cheapest rebid of own suit. As a consequence, it is cheaper for opener to rebid 2♥. Opener can have a minimum hand, like here.

It can also be a stronger hand, because 2♥ (new suit by opener after a 2-over-1 response) is a one-round force. There is no need to jump to 3♥ to show extras. Opener is in control, because he will get another chance.

Roland

[cherdano]

We are now 9 posts into the thread and except Codo nobody has managed to read the auction yet. Partner is a passed hand, 2♦ cannot be forcing. (If 2♦ were forcing, then 2♥ would of course not promise extras, any other agreement is unplayable IMNSHO.)
Since 2♦ is non-forcing, I think 2♥ should show extras and be forcing (this might actually be worth discussing unlike the non-issues raised so far). That's what I would bid, then bid 3N next round. Probably we will play 3N but I don't see how it can hurt to describe my hand.

[Flameous]

I agree with Codo and cherdano, 2D is NF and so 2H is reverse. (Atleast a mild one) I play NFBs so this would be the situation to me even without the pass. I also always double with 4 card hearts so after 2D I already know we have no heart fit.
In conclusion I bid 2NT. I guess it's actually the most negative bid I can make after pass. I don't like my hand too much with a stiff diamond. Although p probably has one or two entries in hearts, it might still be hard to get those diamonds to produce tricks. J of clubs could be a critical card...

[Viren169]

2H seems about right to bid the shape out and keep all options open...

- 2D is non-forcing from a passed hand
- 2H is not a reverse, and does not promise any extras
- 2N is an alternative (as pd did not dble 1S) but would suggest xx in diamonds
- 2N is non-forcing too (in my book)

BR
Viren

[Fluffy]

cherdano, on Jan 6 2009, 09:41 AM, said:

We are now 9 posts into the thread and except Codo nobody has managed to read the auction yet.

touche

[RichMor]

2 NT seems best to me whether responder is a passed hand or not.

Yes, opener can pass with a minimum or sub-minimum and tolerance for Diamonds. But, it's not a good idea to significantly change the meaning of opener's rebids based on the fact that responder is a passed hand.

[mike777]

2h, no problem yet.

I expect to end up in 4h or 3nt.

Someone told me they pay a bonus for bidding vul games.

side note, this is one way to bid 23 point games.

[kgr]

I bid 3NT...must be very wrong as I seem to be the only one.
(partner would probably have DBL'ed with 4c ♥ so the probability of a ♥ fit looks low to me. Therfor I prefer not to give too much info)