[jdonn]

Winstonm, on Jan 2 2009, 06:24 PM, said:

Errr, what auction are we talking about ?

I'm talking about
1NT - (2[♠]) - 3♦ - (P)
where opener rebids 3♥ with jdonn's example xxx AQx Kx KQJxx

If the auction is instead
1NT - (2[♠]) - 3♥ - (P)
then rebid 4♥ with the same hand.

Sorry if you were replying to a different point, but I brought up this auction earlier and asked what you would do. I meant what would you do on an equivalent hand (no spade stopper or heart support), for example xxx Kx AQx KQJxx? I was under the impression you can't bid 3♠ since it promises a half stopper.

Quote

If you are saying 3♥ in the first sequence could (or should ?) be xxx KQJxx Kx AQx instead, that is a sensible treatment. But then you are stuck with the first example hand.

No, you play 3♠ doesn't promise a half stopper and then bid 3♠. It seems like I will be a little stuck with each player holding a half stopper, and you will be a little stuck holding a heart suit. I think I definitely prefer my way, but at least we can understand what it comes down to and make our own choice.

[jdonn]

whereagles, on Jan 2 2009, 06:26 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 2 2009, 04:03 PM, said:

If partner has a spade stopper, and wants to play 3NT opposite a diamond fit, he would have bid 3NT last round (...) instead of bidding diamonds.

That's correct, except that it assumes pard cannot have a slammish hand.

Yes, if you took what I said completely literally. What I (obviously?) meant was "opposite a diamond fit and a suitable hand for play in diamonds", such as the example hand. Or to put it another way, partner has a slammish hand with diamonds, and you want to play 3NT holding Jxx Kx KJTx AKxx???

[whereagles]

jdonn: no. But 3♠ shows something like ♠xxx, thus helping pard evaluating his (eventual) singleton.

Of course, you can argue 4♦ should also show ♠xxx, but are you 100% sure he'll be on the same wavelength?

[gnasher]

You forgot to mention the gravedigger - forget that you're playing Rubensohl rather than Lebensohl and end up burying the partnership in the wrong strain at the six level.

I normally regard myself as a simple bidder ("wooden" and "agricultural" have also been used to describe my style), but I'd bid 4♣. I think it obvious that this agrees diamonds: without diamond support opener has no business passing 3NT.

[FrancesHinden]

Jdonn & winstonn have extended the same question:

Simple souls (such as I) think that 3H by opener shows hearts. And I rarely have a 5-card heart suit when I open 1NT.

I also happen to think that 4C by opener shows clubs, but only because of some rather subtle inferences that perhaps won't have occurred or apply to everyone.
When partner bids 3D he either does not have a spade stop or he has a slam try*. If you have long clubs and no spade stop then bidding the suit is helpful opposite either of those hands. And, after all, you can always show diamond support by raising them...

But as it's not a sequence that we had explicitly discussed, we knew that 4C would be natural on the general rule that if bids can be natural, they are.

*for me this is true, at any rate, because we play double as takeout and 3S as a 3-suiter with singleton or void spade. What's left? a 2=4=5=2 non-slam try would double.

[Fluffy]

simple souls like me do not open 1NT with 5 card hearts, and can freely use 3 hearts for better purposes that finding marginal fits. I don't know if partner might take 4 clubs as natural, but 3 hearts clearly shows diamonds, and even if it doesn't, it will do when we bid 5♦ over 4♥

[Winstonm]

Fluffy, on Jan 3 2009, 12:26 PM, said:

simple souls like me do not open 1NT with 5 card hearts, and can freely use 3 hearts for better purposes that finding marginal fits. I don't know if partner might take 4 clubs as natural, but 3 hearts clearly shows diamonds, and even if it doesn't, it will do when we bid 5♦ over 4♥

Question: How do you bid Kxx, KJxxx, Ax, AJx after 1H-1N-?

[FrancesHinden]

Winstonm, on Jan 3 2009, 05:37 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jan 3 2009, 12:26 PM, said:

simple souls like me do not open 1NT with 5 card hearts, and can freely use 3 hearts for better purposes that finding marginal fits. I don't know if partner might take 4 clubs as natural, but 3 hearts clearly shows diamonds, and even if it doesn't, it will do when we bid 5♦ over 4♥

Question: How do you bid Kxx, KJxxx, Ax, AJx after 1H-1N-?

That depends how simple soul you really are. Playing Acol, you pass 1NT. Easy.

[Viren169]

Hi,

I think there are really only 2 bids (3S/4D) on this problem.

With a pick-up partner I would bid 4D, and with a regular partner 3S (and pull 3N to 4D).

BR
Viren

[dburn]

Viren169, on Jan 3 2009, 01:26 PM, said:

I think there are really only 2 bids (3S/4D) on this problem.

With a pick-up partner I would bid 4D, and with a regular partner 3S (and pull 3N to 4D).

If I bid 3♠ and then removed 3NT to 4♦, my regular partner might next bid a slam expecting me to have a spade control. So might any irregular partner I could imagine playing with.

But if I bid 3♠ with this hand whatever I was intending to do next, my regular partners would send for the men in white coats, and quite right too. It really is a pretty stu... er, scientific bid.

[Winstonm]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 3 2009, 12:53 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Jan 3 2009, 05:37 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jan 3 2009, 12:26 PM, said:

simple souls like me do not open 1NT with 5 card hearts, and can freely use 3 hearts for better purposes that finding marginal fits. I don't know if partner might take 4 clubs as natural, but 3 hearts clearly shows diamonds, and even if it doesn't, it will do when we bid 5♦ over 4♥

Question: How do you bid Kxx, KJxxx, Ax, AJx after 1H-1N-?

That depends how simple soul you really are. Playing Acol, you pass 1NT. Easy.

I don't know Acol, although I used to read a lot of Reese.
Still, in Acol or even in SAYC can't responder hold 9-10 often enough to warrant doing something other than pass?

[Cascade]

Winstonm, on Jan 4 2009, 11:27 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jan 3 2009, 12:53 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Jan 3 2009, 05:37 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jan 3 2009, 12:26 PM, said:

simple souls like me do not open 1NT with 5 card hearts, and can freely use 3 hearts for better purposes that finding marginal fits. I don't know if partner might take 4 clubs as natural, but 3 hearts clearly shows diamonds, and even if it doesn't, it will do when we bid 5♦ over 4♥

Question: How do you bid Kxx, KJxxx, Ax, AJx after 1H-1N-?

That depends how simple soul you really are. Playing Acol, you pass 1NT. Easy.

I don't know Acol, although I used to read a lot of Reese.
Still, in Acol or even in SAYC can't responder hold 9-10 often enough to warrant doing something other than pass?

Most Acol players will not respond 1NT with 10 hcp.

Many will also respond at the two level with some 9 hcp (and sometimes less).

[Edmunte1]

I think i'm the only warped mind here bidding 4♠ anti-cue-bid , and i think partner should understand this . Engage, commander Data !!!!

[Fluffy]

Winstonm, on Jan 3 2009, 05:37 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jan 3 2009, 12:26 PM, said:

simple souls like me do not open 1NT with 5 card hearts, and can freely use 3 hearts for better purposes that finding marginal fits. I don't know if partner might take 4 clubs as natural, but 3 hearts clearly shows diamonds, and even if it doesn't, it will do when we bid 5♦ over 4♥

Question: How do you bid Kxx, KJxxx, Ax, AJx after 1H-1N-?

2♣ followed by 2NT if partner is kind enough to bid again. This is the way we played it even before forcing NT (French std)

[skjaeran]

I'd place myself in the scientist camp normally, but here I think 4♦ is pretty obvious-

3♥ should be natural. I'm a simple soul, and open 1NT with a balanced hand in range, thus I "often" hold 5-card hearts in this sequence. By bypassing 3NT I imply no interest in playing there - partner will therefor expect Jx/Jxx or worse in spades.

[RichMor]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 3 2009, 06:01 AM, said:

Jdonn & winstonn have extended the same question:

Simple souls (such as I) think that 3H by opener shows hearts.  And I rarely have a 5-card heart suit when I open 1NT.

I also happen to think that 4C by opener shows clubs, but only because of some rather subtle inferences that perhaps won't have occurred or apply to everyone. 
When partner bids 3D he either does not have a spade stop or he has a slam try*.  If you have long clubs and no spade stop then bidding the suit is helpful opposite either of those hands.  And, after all, you can always show diamond support by raising them...

But as it's not a sequence that we had explicitly discussed, we knew that 4C would be natural on the general rule that if bids can be natural, they are.

*for me this is true, at any rate, because we play double as takeout and 3S as a 3-suiter with singleton or void spade.  What's left?  a 2=4=5=2 non-slam try would double.

Frances,

OK. With your agreements specified, then I think it is reasonable to raise Diamonds rather than cue a partial Spade stopper.

But it seems to me that when 3♦ 'either does not have a spade stop or has a slam try' may leave you poorly placed when responder just has game-going values and no Spade stop.

How would you respond after 1NT - (2♠) with
♠)xx ♥)Qxx ♦)AJxxx ♣)Kxx ?

Most lebensohl treatments have some call, direct or delayed, that shows game values and no stop in the opps' suit; some play 'direct denies' where responder bids 3NT with no stopper and others play 'slow denies' where responder bids 2NT followed by 3NT with no stopper.

With the example hand above you can use one of the 'no stopper' calls. But one of the advantages of lebensohl is the ability to make a forcing natural response below game. I would like to bid a natural forcing 3♦ with this example hand.