[TylerE]

3♠ for me. Bypassing 3N at MP == Madness. This definatly shows exactly a half stopper.

[jdonn]

How can the cue show half a stopper, or must you bypass 3NT with no spade stopper and no diamond support? xxx AQx Kx KQJxx?

[qwery_hi]

jdonn, on Jan 2 2009, 12:40 PM, said:

How can the cue show half a stopper, or must you bypass 3NT with no spade stopper and no diamond support? xxx AQx Kx KQJxx?

No, with this hand, one would have to choose between 3NT and 4♦

With this hand, I would have to lie. Perhaps considering "xxx" a half-stopper is a less harmful lie than than considering "Kx" adequate diamond support. I don't know. I have seen arguments for both.

[Winstonm]

Excellent question.

I wonder, though, if the 3S bid is always "scientific" or isn't the result of some compulsive belief in saving bidding room and not bypassing 3NT when holding the minors.

To some, 3S may also be a macho thing - I'm not letting overcaller get me out of the right contract.

Acutally, something like 3H to me would be the scientific bid - bidding a stopper while implying no stop in spades.

Anyway, scientist, macho, or compulsive, I bid 3S.

[qwery_hi]

Winstonm, on Jan 2 2009, 02:02 PM, said:

Excellent question.

I wonder, though, if the 3S bid is always "scientific" or isn't the result of some compulsive belief in saving bidding room and not bypassing 3NT when holding the minors.

To some, 3S may also be a macho thing - I'm not letting overcaller get me out of the right contract.

Acutally, something like 3H to me would be the scientific bid - bidding a stopper while implying no stop in spades.

Anyway, scientist, macho, or compulsive, I bid 3S. 

This makes sense. If the 1NT opener has xx in spades, he surely must have something in hearts or diamond support. 3♥ would then be the bid.

[cherdano]

My instinct would be 3♠, but after giving it a little thought I would bid 4♣ with Han and 4♦ with anyone else.
Do I need to go and see a shrink?

[Winstonm]

It seems to me that both 3H and 3S also express some doubt as to the best final contract - implying strongly no spade stop but also no strong reason to believe 3N should be ruled out entirely.

I would think 4D would be more strongly suit-oriented: xx, Axx, KQxx, AQxx or something like that.

[qwery_hi]

Winstonm, on Jan 2 2009, 02:22 PM, said:

It seems to me that both 3H and 3S also express some doubt as to the best final contract - implying strongly no spade stop but also no strong reason to believe 3N should be ruled out entirely.

I would think 4D would be more strongly suit-oriented: xx, Axx, KQxx, AQxx or something like that.

I disagree. Can you explain why you consider

xx Axx KQxx AQxx more suit oriented than Jxx Kx KJTx AKxx,
in the context of the present auction? I think at this point in the bidding, I would be unable to say that one hand was more suit oriented than the other.

[RichMor]

jdonn, on Jan 2 2009, 12:40 PM, said:

How can the cue show half a stopper, or must you bypass 3NT with no spade stopper and no diamond support? xxx AQx Kx KQJxx?

3♥, WTP ?

[jdonn]

RichMor, on Jan 2 2009, 02:31 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 2 2009, 12:40 PM, said:

How can the cue show half a stopper, or must you bypass 3NT with no spade stopper and no diamond support? xxx AQx Kx KQJxx?

3♥, WTP ?

Ok, I would think that shows hearts, but obviously if you are just showing stoppers it's certainly wtp.

Unless of course partner had bid hearts instead of diamonds.

[dburn]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 2 2009, 05:52 AM, said:

Everybody has their own style of bidding.  I've given the six main different styles above. Partnerships are compatible when the styles mesh.  You don't have to play the same style as your partner (a simple soul and a mastermind can work well).

This hand come up earlier this week, and I was struck how the bid chosen at the table by various people seemed to reflect exactly my perception of how they like to bid.

Scoring: matchpoints

1NT 2♠ 3♦ P
?

---

1NT is 15-17
3♦ is natural and game forcing (double would have been take-out)

FWIW my first choice is 4D, and my second choice is 3S
My partner bid 3S, second choice 4D but said afterwards he thought 4D was right.  He's a scientist at heart and his natural reaction was to bid the opponents' suit.

If you would like to be a scientist, here is the very simple rule. In descending order of priority at any stage in any auction, you should if possible:

[1] Double
[2] Bid the opponents' suit
[3] Bid the fourth suit
[4] Bid your own suit
[5] Bid partner's suit

But note that [5] is an absolute last resort, to be employed only when [a] your bid in partner's suit is actually a splinter or [b] your support is considerably better than KJ10x.

[Cascade]

To the Scientists ...

If you don't raise partner's suit with four to three honours when will you raise?

[Winstonm]

jdonn, on Jan 2 2009, 11:03 AM, said:

I think 4♦ is pretty obvious (or at least raising diamonds somehow, so if you think 4♣ is a cuebid...) The one thing I think is clearly wrong (other than 3NT) is 3♠ with the intention of passing 3NT if partner bids it. If partner has a spade stopper, and wants to play 3NT opposite a diamond fit, he would have bid 3NT last round (or 2NT - 3NT depending on leb) instead of bidding diamonds.

On further review, this is most likely right and something I did not factor when looking at the problem - what would partner bid if he thought 3N was the best contract - 3N D'oh!!!

What would partner do if partner needed to create a game force but did not have A) a spade stop or a slam try?

Let's just say this: xx, Axx, AQxxx, xxx
and this: Qx, QJ, AQxxxx, xxx.

1N-2S-3D*-?

I think the difference here is that the 4D biddiers are taking the pragmatic approach - it will work a high percentage of the time, while the scientist is trying to improve upon that percentage when it may not be all that worthwhile to do so.

And I am in the scientific camp and have lost tons of imps and MPs to pragmatists in my lifetime.

[RichMor]

jdonn, on Jan 2 2009, 02:43 PM, said:

RichMor, on Jan 2 2009, 02:31 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 2 2009, 12:40 PM, said:

How can the cue show half a stopper, or must you bypass 3NT with no spade stopper and no diamond support? xxx AQx Kx KQJxx?

3♥, WTP ?

Ok, I would think that shows hearts, but obviously if you are just showing stoppers it's certainly wtp.

Unless of course partner had bid hearts instead of diamonds.

4♥, WTP redux.

This would be a different and more interesting problem at teams, but pairs scoring it is so head for 3NT when possible.

[jdonn]

RichMor, on Jan 2 2009, 03:32 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 2 2009, 02:43 PM, said:

RichMor, on Jan 2 2009, 02:31 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 2 2009, 12:40 PM, said:

How can the cue show half a stopper, or must you bypass 3NT with no spade stopper and no diamond support? xxx AQx Kx KQJxx?

3♥, WTP ?

Ok, I would think that shows hearts, but obviously if you are just showing stoppers it's certainly wtp.

Unless of course partner had bid hearts instead of diamonds.

4♥, WTP redux.

This would be a different and more interesting problem at teams, but pairs scoring it is so head for 3NT when possible.

Sometimes I still hold hearts at pairs and yet don't want to rule out 3NT if partner doesn't fit them.

[Winstonm]

jdonn, on Jan 2 2009, 04:16 PM, said:

RichMor, on Jan 2 2009, 03:32 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 2 2009, 02:43 PM, said:

RichMor, on Jan 2 2009, 02:31 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 2 2009, 12:40 PM, said:

How can the cue show half a stopper, or must you bypass 3NT with no spade stopper and no diamond support? xxx AQx Kx KQJxx?

3♥, WTP ?

Ok, I would think that shows hearts, but obviously if you are just showing stoppers it's certainly wtp.

Unless of course partner had bid hearts instead of diamonds.

4♥, WTP redux.

This would be a different and more interesting problem at teams, but pairs scoring it is so head for 3NT when possible.

Sometimes I still hold hearts at pairs and yet don't want to rule out 3NT if partner doesn't fit them.

Whether you hold in hearts KQx or KQxxx, you still have a stopper - the question to define is whether or not it is best to use 3H as a suggestion for a trump suit or simply a stop.

I think there are alternative ways to view this:
3H as a stopper and expressing some doubt as to where to play.
3H as a suit and suggesting 4H.
3H as confirming a diamond fit and control shwoing.

I don't know which is best.

[RichMor]

Winstonm, on Jan 2 2009, 05:02 PM, said:

Whether you hold in hearts KQx or KQxxx, you still have a stopper - the question to define is whether or not it is best to use 3H as a suggestion for a trump suit or simply a stop.

I think there are alternative ways to view this: 
3H as a stopper and expressing some doubt as to where to play.
3H as a suit and suggesting 4H.
3H as confirming a diamond fit and control shwoing.

I don't know which is best.

Errr, what auction are we talking about ?

I'm talking about
1NT - (2[♠]) - 3♦ - (P)
where opener rebids 3♥ with jdonn's example xxx AQx Kx KQJxx

If the auction is instead
1NT - (2[♠]) - 3♥ - (P)
then rebid 4♥ with the same hand.

If you are saying 3♥ in the first sequence could (or should ?) be xxx KQJxx Kx AQx instead, that is a sensible treatment. But then you are stuck with the first example hand.

Guess we can't have it all even in 2009.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

3S, second choice 4D.

I am most likely more scientific minded than my partner,
but I disagree, that 3S is the scientific bid.
I want to know, if we have a stopper, if we have, 3NT will
most likely be the best contract, if not 5D and 6D can still
be reached.

Of course after this seq. we play either NT or diamonds.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Winstonm]

RichMor, on Jan 2 2009, 05:39 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Jan 2 2009, 05:02 PM, said:

Whether you hold in hearts KQx or KQxxx, you still have a stopper - the question to define is whether or not it is best to use 3H as a suggestion for a trump suit or simply a stop.

I think there are alternative ways to view this: 
3H as a stopper and expressing some doubt as to where to play.
3H as a suit and suggesting 4H.
3H as confirming a diamond fit and control shwoing.

I don't know which is best.

Errr, what auction are we talking about ?

I'm talking about
1NT - (2[♠]) - 3♦ - (P)
where opener rebids 3♥ with jdonn's example xxx AQx Kx KQJxx

If the auction is instead
1NT - (2[♠]) - 3♥ - (P)
then rebid 4♥ with the same hand.

If you are saying 3♥ in the first sequence could (or should ?) be xxx KQJxx Kx AQx instead, that is a sensible treatment. But then you are stuck with the first example hand.

Guess we can't have it all even in 2009.

I meant that 1N-2S-3D-P-3H needs to be defined as either heart stop or heart length and I don't know which is best but it cannot be both.

I think there is merit in Jdonn's approach to show 5 hearts as the 1N opening is likely to hold 5 hearts quite often.

[whereagles]

jdonn, on Jan 2 2009, 04:03 PM, said:

If partner has a spade stopper, and wants to play 3NT opposite a diamond fit, he would have bid 3NT last round (...) instead of bidding diamonds.

That's correct, except that it assumes pard cannot have a slammish hand.