[dcvetkov]

What is double in this auction?

North LHO South RHO
1 ♦ 2♣ X 3♣
X*


- Penalty
- I have 4-4 in majors, please bid your 4 carder since you may have imperfect neg. double
- Showing extras, balanced, decision up to partner
- Something else

Thanks

[CSGibson]

Penalty

[JLOL]

CSGibson, on Dec 23 2008, 01:27 PM, said:

Penalty

LOL

[mtvesuvius]

This double can be defined as: "Make an intelligent bid partner". If partner wants to penalize and the vulnerability is right, then partner may do so. This generally just shows a little extra values, and some sort of support for at least 1 major...


AJK

[Codo]

both majors

Partner has an awful lot of hands he has to double: nonforcing non suiters (or some forcing one suiters when playing nfbs), 44 hands, 43 hands, some 53 hands, some hands with one major and fit.

To cater for all these possibilities, you need a way to show both majors in one bid without taking too much space away.

To let partner make the double without the typical 4/4 in the majors is of much more value then showing extra strength or finding the penalty once in a decade.

[Fluffy]

responsive double, normally 3451 or 4351 with extras. 19 balanced is also an option.

[glen]

extras, no clear direction

[Edmunte1]

glen, on Dec 23 2008, 08:50 PM, said:

extras, no clear direction

Agree

[dcvetkov]

Codo, on Dec 23 2008, 06:36 PM, said:

both majors

Partner has an awful lot of hands he has to double: nonforcing non suiters (or some forcing one suiters when playing nfbs), 44 hands, 43 hands, some 53 hands, some hands with one major and fit.

To cater for all these possibilities, you need a way to show both majors in one bid without taking too much space away.

To let partner make the double without the typical 4/4 in the majors is of much more value then showing extra strength or finding the penalty once in a decade.

I am kind of surprised there is no real consensus here;). Imagine what are you chances of getting it right with a pickup on BBO.

My thinking is as Codo, partner negative double has to cater to a lot of hands, and asking double to promise 4-4 at 2 level I think its impractical. So I think dbl should promise both majors, and partner is to take a pick.

Playing is strictly as penalty dbl also is too one sided, you will rarwely have a trump stack, although it may work at MP.

I am not sure what is right or expert agreement, but there are arguments for all approaches.

[ArtK78]

Could be a lot of things. The standard definition (and the definition that I would choose with a pick up partner) is penalty. The double is not likely to be based on a trump stack - more likely, it is based on a strong balanced hand.

The other choices - do something intelligent (sometimes referred to as an action double or a bridge double) or 4-4 in the majors would be a matter of partnership agreement.

[TimG]

dcvetkov, on Dec 24 2008, 10:21 AM, said:

My thinking is as Codo, partner negative double has to cater to a lot of hands, and asking double to promise 4-4 at 2 level I think its impractical. So I think dbl should promise both majors, and partner is to take a pick.

Opener will practically never double on this auction if he waits until he is 4-4 in the majors. Perhaps there is a more frequent use of the double that is also effective?

[jdonn]

TimG, on Dec 24 2008, 11:06 AM, said:

dcvetkov, on Dec 24 2008, 10:21 AM, said:

My thinking is as Codo, partner negative double has to cater to a lot of hands, and asking double to promise 4-4 at 2 level I think its impractical. So I think dbl should promise both majors, and partner is to take a pick.

Opener will practically never double on this auction if he waits until he is 4-4 in the majors. Perhaps there is a more frequent use of the double that is also effective?

I agree with this, it just has to be extra values without a clear direction because any more specific meaning leaves you with no adequate bid on certain hands. 4-4 in the majors only makes sense in the context of a strong club, in standard you should cuebid for partner to choose a major if you can force to game, otherwise just choose a major and live with it.

[Viren169]

Hi,

I think you could make all sorts of partnership agreements for this dble, what I play with my partner(s) is as follows.

- With a min and no 4-card major I would Pass
- With a 4-card major and 12-14 I would bid 3M
- With a 4-card maj and 15-17 hand I would bid 4M
- With a 4-card maj and 18+ hand I would bid 4C
- With a non-min and no 4 card major I would dble leaving decision to partner

BR
Viren

[the hog]

Edmunte1, on Dec 24 2008, 02:49 PM, said:

glen, on Dec 23 2008, 08:50 PM, said:

extras, no clear direction

Agree

Agree again.

[neilkaz]

The_Hog, on Jan 3 2009, 09:31 PM, said:

Edmunte1, on Dec 24 2008, 02:49 PM, said:

glen, on Dec 23 2008, 08:50 PM, said:

extras, no clear direction

Agree

Agree again.

As do I

[Cascade]

neilkaz, on Jan 4 2009, 06:25 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Jan 3 2009, 09:31 PM, said:

Edmunte1, on Dec 24 2008, 02:49 PM, said:

glen, on Dec 23 2008, 08:50 PM, said:

extras, no clear direction

Agree

Agree again.

As do I

Count me in.

I always think in this sort of situation that penalties is an inefficient agreement. Basically it means you have two bids to show something decent in clubs - a Penalty Double and 3NT. When the auction has been pre-empted it seems more efficient to given a different meaning to double. Even if it means missing an occasionally juicy penalty.

[Codo]

I still do not understand why "extra, no clear direction" should be a good idea here.
WHich hand do you want to double with?
1. 18+ HCps? You can, but with this strength, many ways will work.
2. 15-17? You are not balanced, so you should have a second suit to bid or a suit you can repeat.
3. 15-17 with 2254 and no stopper? What exactly should partner do now with his majors and club shortage?
4. A good balanced 14 HCP hand? Isn't this a too small target to aim at?

Of course, when you play a weak NT, I would guess that X should show 15-17 with no full stopper, because that is the worst hand to show without a double. But in the context of a strong NT?

So for the millions out there who plays it as extras: What are the hands you think about?

[Fluffy]

I guess Roland that the problem is that those who double with extras, wanna bid freely on 12-14. Bidding with 12-14 is working for me so far.

[skjaeran]

Add me in the "extras, no clear direction" chorus.

[barryallen]

Cascade, on Jan 4 2009, 12:37 AM, said:

neilkaz, on Jan 4 2009, 06:25 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Jan 3 2009, 09:31 PM, said:

Edmunte1, on Dec 24 2008, 02:49 PM, said:

glen, on Dec 23 2008, 08:50 PM, said:

extras, no clear direction

Agree

Agree again.

As do I

Count me in.

I always think in this sort of situation that penalties is an inefficient agreement. Basically it means you have two bids to show something decent in clubs - a Penalty Double and 3NT. When the auction has been pre-empted it seems more efficient to given a different meaning to double. Even if it means missing an occasionally juicy penalty.

But surely once you interpret the bid as "extra values, no clear direction", 3♣X has to be an option?
I agree on what the bid means, but the final contract can be any where between 3♣X and 4♠ depending upon p point holding and his ♣ holding and the vulnerability? The decision has been left to p to decide from his holding and I cannot see any reason for any option to not be on the table?