[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     Pass
 1♠    Pass  4♠    Pass
 Pass  Pass  

[helene_t]

2♣, then support spades later if you get the chance. Make sure to make a forcing bid, if opener rebids 2♦/♥, 2♠ will not be forcing, nor will 3♠ if opener rebids 2♠.

[vuroth]

Agree with 2♣.

[kenberg]

I'm in a rush and can't look over all of the SAYC write-up but I seem to recall that 1S-2C-2red-3S is forcing. 1S-2C-2S-3S certainly would not be forcing since it is needed for a hand with clubs, eleven points, and modest spade support. I think bidding 2C is probably right. It is hardly a suit but getting cute by bidding a three carder has a way of coming back to bite you. It seems that the auction might go 1S-2C-3S with a seven card suit and an LTC of 5. I assume that this sets trump so maybe 4D next, quite possibly still ending in 4S. It's hardly a lock for 12 tricks and as the cards lie doesn't make 6 on a club lead.

But 1M-pass-4M should be a stiff, preferably five trumps, and no more than 9hcps.

[bid_em_up]

Disagree with 2C on this anemic club suit.

3N (13-15, 33(43)), is my choice.

[vuroth]

SAYC, responding to 1 of a major:

Quote

3NT = 15–17 HCP, balanced hand with two-card support for partner.

[ArtK78]

It is amazing how often I see players with a full game forcing hand with trump support jump to game like this. For some reason, they do not understand that a triple raise of partner's major suit opening is supposed to be preemptive.

[This discussion does not apply to any system which limits opener's bid to 15 or 16 HCP, like Precision or other strong club opening systems]

I see this quite frequently in ACBL pair games on BBO.

I do not know where players learned to do this, but I would advise them to stay away from that place.

[TylerE]

vuroth, on Dec 2 2008, 10:51 AM, said:

SAYC, responding to 1 of a major:

Quote

3NT = 15–17 HCP, balanced hand with two-card support for partner.

Ya know, if people would just abandon SAYC as a playable system they'd be so much better off. There certainly needs to be a default B/I system in North America, but SAYC as defined leaves a lot to be desired.

[vuroth]

ArtK78, I would imagine it has a lot to do with partnerships not knowing forcing auctions. After all, as an unpassed hand, I've been passed out in both a 1-over-1 response and a 2-over-1 response before.

Heck, if you grew up with the gorenesque idea that you jump bid with an opener, then there might even be some logic in concluding that 1♠ - 2♣ wasn't going to make it to game, so why not pass?

4♠ then, on these hands, is being gunshy/not trusting partner to know their system.

IMHO

V

[vuroth]

This is getting tiresome - SAYC unplayable? I think there's a huge gap between "has its problems" and unplayable.

Furthermore, I suspect that playing SAYC and finding the holes in the system is probably an excellent learning experience.

V

[TylerE]

Well responder has bid problems (not rebid - bid!) on bread and butter auctions, yea, I consider that unplayable. The horrible SAYC 1m-3m agreement for instance.

[matmat]

whenever i play with a random on bbo and this auction happens after I open 1M, i make slam tries with a better than average hand. it's a plague.

[RichMor]

I would respond 2♦ instead of 2♣.

Then I would raise Spades.

[peachy]

In SAYC:
1S-2C-2x-3S is forcing. Works okay and probably the best way with the given hand.
1S-3NT = 15-17 and 2-card support. Works ok although in this hand there is 3-card support but the shape is poor so maybe lying about support would not hurt but when there is a method to bid it without lying, why lie.
1S-2NT = 13+ dummy points with spade support. SAYC does not require 4-card support to use Jacoby 2NT.
1S-4S = less than opening hand, usually five card support and a side singleton or void. The posted hand should not use this sequence.

Pick your poison

[TylerE]

peachy, on Dec 2 2008, 02:30 PM, said:

In SAYC:
1S-2C-2x-3S is forcing. Works okay and probably the best way with the given hand.
1S-3NT = 15-17 and 2-card support. Works ok although in this hand there is 3-card support but the shape is poor so maybe lying about support would not hurt but when there is a method to bid it without lying, why lie.
1S-2NT = 13+ dummy points with spade support. SAYC does not require 4-card support to use Jacoby 2NT.
1S-4S = less than opening hand, usually five card support and a side singleton or void. The posted hand should not use this sequence.

Pick your poison

Those methods really are unfortunate. Hate hate hate 3 card J2NT. The 4th trump can be the difference between an 80% slam and a 40% one.

[peachy]

TylerE, on Dec 2 2008, 02:32 PM, said:

peachy, on Dec 2 2008, 02:30 PM, said:

In SAYC:
1S-2C-2x-3S is forcing. Works okay and probably the best way with the given hand.
1S-3NT = 15-17 and 2-card support.  Works ok although in this hand there is 3-card support but the shape is poor so maybe lying about support would not hurt but when there is a method to bid it without lying, why lie.
1S-2NT = 13+ dummy points with spade support.  SAYC does not require 4-card support to use Jacoby 2NT.
1S-4S = less than opening hand, usually five card support and a side singleton or void.  The posted hand should not use this sequence.

Pick your poison

Those methods really are unfortunate. Hate hate hate 3 card J2NT. The 4th trump can be the difference between an 80% slam and a 40% one.

Just to make it clear: I did NOT say I like them. But they are SAYC.

[ArtK78]

peachy, on Dec 2 2008, 02:30 PM, said:

In SAYC:
1S-2C-2x-3S is forcing. Works okay and probably the best way with the given hand.
1S-3NT = 15-17 and 2-card support.  Works ok although in this hand there is 3-card support but the shape is poor so maybe lying about support would not hurt but when there is a method to bid it without lying, why lie.
1S-2NT = 13+ dummy points with spade support.  SAYC does not require 4-card support to use Jacoby 2NT.
1S-4S = less than opening hand, usually five card support and a side singleton or void.  The posted hand should not use this sequence.

Pick your poison

Just because this summary doesn't say 4-card trump support doesn't mean that SAYC doesn't require that a Jacoby 2NT raise promises 4 card trump support. The ACBL SAYC System Booklet says that the 2NT response is Jacoby 2NT. It does not say how much trump support you promise for the 2NT bid. It certainly does not state that 3 card support is allowed.

Anyone who plays Jacoby 2NT knows that you have to have 4 card trump support to make the bid (unless you choose to lie deliberately).

It is not a matter of SAYC. It is a matter of defining what you mean by 2NT.

If you choose to play SAYC and you choose to make a Jacoby 2NT raise on 3 card trump support, that is your problem, not a system problem.

[awm]

Everyplace I've looked, 1M-2NT is Jacoby in SAYC and promises 4+ trumps.

However, it is the case that 1M-3M promises only 3+ trumps.

For this reason, auctions like 1♠-2♣-2♠-3♠ are game forcing -- opener never promised extra spade length (2♠ is normal rebid with a minimum and no red suit to name) and the raise should promise three-card support. But a limit raise with 3♠ would have started with 1♠-3♠....

[blackshoe]

bid_em_up, on Dec 2 2008, 11:47 AM, said:

Disagree with 2C on this anemic club suit.

3N (13-15, 33(43)), is my choice.

Then you aren't playing SAYC. According to the system booklet, 3NT shows

Quote

15–17 HCP, balanced hand with two-card support for partner.

I agree that SAYC as defined has problems. I wouldn't call it "unplayable" - although it seems pretty clear that a lot of people who claim to play SAYC don't, because of said problems.

A few years ago, I did agree to play SAYC with a (f2f) partner. Well, except for the fact that she had no clue what Jacboby 2NT was and could not learn it. If someone asked me to play SAYC today, I would decline.

[skjaeran]

helene_t, on Dec 2 2008, 04:19 PM, said:

2♣, then support spades later if you get the chance. Make sure to make a forcing bid, if opener rebids 2♦/♥, 2♠ will not be forcing, nor will 3♠ if opener rebids 2♠.

I've never played SAYC, but whenever I play a non-2/1, 1M-2m-2M-3M is forcing. If not, there's no way to make a natural slam invite below game level. See also awm's comment above.