[Quarky]

Team match, imps, vulnerable, all you know is you and your pard are playing 2/1 without any other discussion

Pard opens 1C

I hold:

AKx
10
KQJxx
AKxx

I bid 1D, pard continues 1H.

How are 1S and 2S typically played now? I'm not sure which is more common to show spade suit and which is to be artificial forcing. I bid 1S, pard bid 1nt... what are my options now, since 1S is undiscussed?

I am afraid of bidding 2C and having it passed, so i bid 3C, pard bid 3nt, now i was stuck and tried 4C which got passed . I didn't want to jump to slam without testing the minor situation... turned out pard had 3433, and playing in diamonds would have been best.

[effervesce]

3♣ rebid is fine. With a 3-4-3-3 surely partner could have bid 3♦, given 3♣ is game-forcing anyway. When partner bid 3NT, he's showing a crappy hand. You're basically forced to pass 3NT, since you've already shown your game forcing hand and partner said he wanted to play in 3NT opposite you having diamonds and clubs. A 3NT rebid is a misdescription but isn't bad either.

[andy_h]

I think the 1C-1D-1H-1S meaning depends on what style of responses you play. For example, if 1H can be bid based on a balanced hand then it makes more sense for 1S to be natural. However, I prefer to play that 1H by opener means an unbalanced hand and because of this, the 1D bidder should strive to respond 1S with <GF values even with longer diamonds so 1D would normally mean diamonds, or diamonds and a major GF. That way, 1C-1D-1H-1S the 1S would be the 4th suit GF for me.
I don't really like 2S as 4sGF as it takes up so much space.

[han]

There may be hands where you do not have a suitable honest bid available and you should fake a suit in order to force. This is not one of those hands as you have a normal 3C bid available. It shows diamonds and clubs and is forcing to game, perfect!

[neilkaz]

han, on Dec 20 2008, 09:20 PM, said:

There may be hands where you do not have a suitable honest bid available and you should fake a suit in order to force. This is not one of those hands as you have a normal 3C bid available. It shows diamonds and clubs and is forcing to game, perfect!

And Quarky wrote: I am afraid of bidding 2C and having it passed, so i bid 3C, pard bid 3nt, now i was stuck and tried 4C which got passed

As Han points out, 3C is GF !! What part of that did PD missunderstand when he passed 4C ?

However, you've bid your hand allready with a GF 3C and should pass 3NT.

EDIT ...scratch my comments here...It seems that I have missread the auction. I tend to do better when I see the actual bids. My appologies.

[han]

Yes, neilkaz is right that you should pass 3NT. Probably partner shouldn't have bid 3NT though, but 3D.

[Cascade]

It wouldn't occur to me that 3♣ was forcing.

I would have assumed the standard was that a jump preference is a limited invite showing around 9+ to 11(12) hcp.

EDited out gory details since i misread the earlier posts

[cherdano]

Wasn't this thread about a 1D opening earlier?

[655321]

Cascade, on Dec 21 2008, 02:20 AM, said:

It wouldn't occur to me that 3♣ was forcing.

The auction everyone is discussing is

1♣  1♦
1♥  1♠
1NT 3♣

[Cascade]

655321, on Dec 21 2008, 08:31 PM, said:

Cascade, on Dec 21 2008, 02:20 AM, said:

It wouldn't occur to me that 3♣ was forcing.

The auction everyone is discussing is

1♣  1♦
1♥  1♠
1NT 3♣

Ah sorry i misread Han's post after Andy had discussed 4th suit forcing.

It all makes sense now.

[Fluffy]

There is no typical way of playing 1♠ and 2♠, one of them is 4sF, the other is nat, but wich one is what depends on you adn oyur partner.


Partner should bid 3♦.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

in the seq.

1C - 1D
1H - ...

1S is sometimes played as natural, sometimes as FSF.
If you play 1S as natural, 2S is now FSF.
Playing 1S as natural makes sense, if you play 5 card
major, and dont play walsh, i.e. if you bid a 4 card
diamond suit before a 4 card spade suit as a response
to a 1C opening.

A matter of partnership agreement, hence I would try
to avoid the bid, if I did not have discussed it.

I guess, I would go with 1S, because I have a suit I could
sell as a 4 card suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

<deleted>

[movingon]

I don't understand those who say that you now must pass 3nt as you have already described your hand as game forcing on the 3 club bid.

Partner opened 1 club. You hold 20 hcp with a nice 5 card suit and good clubs.
you may have made the same bid with considerably less than 20 hcp. Partner does not know you have this good a hand.

Once partner opens his hand, I am going to be hard pressed to stay out of slam.

Noreen
p.s. In my partnerships we would play that a jump to 2 spades is the 4th suit game forcing bid.

[mike777]

Quarky, on Dec 1 2008, 06:35 PM, said:

Team match, imps, vulnerable, all you know is you and your pard are playing 2/1 without any other discussion

Pard opens 1C

I hold:

AKx
10
KQJxx
AKxx

I bid 1D, pard continues 1H.

How are 1S and 2S typically played now? I'm not sure which is more common to show spade suit and which is to be artificial forcing. I bid 1S, pard bid 1nt... what are my options now, since 1S is undiscussed?

I am afraid of bidding 2C and having it passed, so i bid 3C, pard bid 3nt, now i was stuck and tried 4C which got passed . I didn't want to jump to slam without testing the minor situation... turned out pard had 3433, and playing in diamonds would have been best.

OK if the auction is:
1c=1d
1h=1s?
1nt=now 4nt.........1nt I assume is 11-13 or 12-14.

second choice 3c and then if pard rebids 3nt...now 4nt....

agree with other comments pard might rebid 3d over 3c but I would not shoot him for 3nt.

btw you did not state if 1h promised an unbalanced hand so I assumed you are not playing Walsh style.

[han]

Cascade, on Dec 21 2008, 02:38 AM, said:

655321, on Dec 21 2008, 08:31 PM, said:

Cascade, on Dec 21 2008, 02:20 AM, said:

It wouldn't occur to me that 3♣ was forcing.

The auction everyone is discussing is

1♣  1♦
1♥  1♠
1NT 3♣

Ah sorry i misread Han's post after Andy had discussed 4th suit forcing.

It all makes sense now.

Actually I misread the auction, so please ignore my answer.

[awm]

This is a good hand for strong jump shifts. An immediate 2♦ reply will be raised to 3♦ on three-card support, after which we can have a nice cuebidding auction. If opener doesn't have three diamonds, then he will bid something (often 2M or 2N) and we can bid 3♣ at next turn, setting the suit (opener must have four clubs if not holding three diamonds) and again starting a nice cuebidding auction.

Not playing strong jump shifts, I think the standard is that 2♠ is fourth suit game force (I know that's what I play in these auctions).

I agree that giving up on slam after 3NT seems like poor tactics; I would force to slam on this hand opposite most partners, although if partner is particularly fond of opening balanced 11-counts I might try a quantitative 4NT over 3NT.

[benlessard]

To suggest to pass 3Nt is a joke and partner pass of 4C is worse.

[Winstonm]

1C-3H
3N-4N

Either partner has 4+ clubs or NT should be fine.

[barryallen]

mike777, on Dec 21 2008, 08:52 AM, said:

Quarky, on Dec 1 2008, 06:35 PM, said:

Team match, imps, vulnerable, all you know is you and your pard are playing 2/1 without any other discussion

Pard opens 1C

I hold:

AKx
10
KQJxx
AKxx

I bid 1D, pard continues 1H.

How are 1S and 2S typically played now? I'm not sure which is more common to show spade suit and which is to be artificial forcing. I bid 1S, pard bid 1nt... what are my options now, since 1S is undiscussed?

I am afraid of bidding 2C and having it passed, so i bid 3C, pard bid 3nt, now i was stuck and tried 4C which got passed . I didn't want to jump to slam without testing the minor situation... turned out pard had 3433, and playing in diamonds would have been best.

OK if the auction is:
1c=1d
1h=1s?
1nt=now 4nt.........1nt I assume is 11-13 or 12-14.

second choice 3c and then if pard rebids 3nt...now 4nt....

agree with other comments pard might rebid 3d over 3c but I would not shoot him for 3nt.

btw you did not state if 1h promised an unbalanced hand so I assumed you are not playing Walsh style.

In the first case, surely 1C-1D-1H-1S it is assumed that 1S as natural but forcing for 1 round? if you then follow 1NT by 3C, p can then describe his hand further?
If p bids 3nt and 4nt is quantitative, p should easily get the full picture now and select the best contract.

A club or diamond slam seem a real possibility, but 6nt may not be so inviting depending upon the H holding. What I have difficulty understanding here is an auction which eliminates some very good minor suit slam possibilities?