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What does it show?

#1 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 10:38

Please give an example hand or two for this auction. I open 1, LHO overcalls 1. It goes P P back to me and I double. Partner bids 1 and I bid 2.

1 1 P P
DBL P 1 P
2

What should my hand look like, regarding both shape and strength?

Is it the same or different if partner bid 1 instead?
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#2 User is offline   kfay 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 11:36

Tough one.

Partner could have:
1) bid a major, so unbalanced minimum with c+M is out
2) doubled and bid a major so a max with c+M is out
3) bid 1NT, so balanced 18-19 w/ diamond stop is out
4) doubled and bid 1NT, which I think probably shows an off-shape 16-18, maybe a questionable diamond stopper. but i'd really like to know what other people think of this bid

So I think this definitely shows clubs. And no major. But a hand that isn't worth a jump to 3. And a good hand, probably no diamond stopper, so something like:

KQx
AJ
Jx
AKJ10xx

I think it's probably a broken 7-card club suit or a pretty solid 6-card suit.

If the hand held 3 hearts it might have raised so I think it's semi-likely that it only has 2 hearts. We're probably looking to play some number of no-trumps.

I also think that 2 diamonds is likely, probably a half stopper, for the purposes of no-trump.

Edit: I guess it's also possible that we're just looking for a 5-card major so maybe the hand is 3325 or 3316. But same basic stuff. Definitely no diamond stopper.
Kevin Fay
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#3 User is offline   RichMor 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 11:42

Josh,

Since most play semi-automatic reopening doubles, opener's hand type is loosely defined.

In your example auctions I would just expect opener to have 5+ and fewer than 4 cards in responder's major.

1 - (1) - P - (P)
X - (P) - 1 - (P)
2
denies 4 Spades IMO.
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#4 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 12:53

Opener must
i) be prepared for responder to jump in a major
ii) not have four spades (no 1S bid)
iii) not have massive extra values (2C bid is definitely not forcing)

so it sounds like exactly 3316 (3325 would probably pass 1H)

After 1S by responder, opener might have four hearts, but I would have thought that a 3415 would pass 1S.
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#5 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 13:10

FrancesHinden, on Nov 20 2008, 12:53 PM, said:

Opener must
i) be prepared for responder to jump in a major
ii) not have four spades (no 1S bid)
iii) not have massive extra values (2C bid is definitely not forcing)

so it sounds like exactly 3316 (3325 would probably pass 1H)

After 1S by responder, opener might have four hearts, but I would have thought that a 3415 would pass 1S.

I wouldn't be so purist. With many 3226 hands (with extras) or similar hands you would really like to check whether partner was penalty passing before bidding clubs. If partner jumps in hearts, we can still bid 3.
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#6 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 13:34

I would expect something like:

Kxx
AJx
x
KQJxxx

HCP range: 11-17. (With more, jump to 3.)
Other possible shapes: 3226 or 2326 (no wastage in ), 2317 or 3217 (broken clubs, headed by A or K).

Same case if responder had bid 1, except that now a 2416 is possible.
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#7 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 15:48

3316 or 3226 or 2326. Same over 1 by responder. I wouldn't bid this way with a 6-4 hand (don't want to defend at one-level with this) or with seven clubs (same reason). While passing 1M is certainly possible, the six-card club suit is fairly likely to play better than a major suit moysian (and responder can rebid his major with 5 and a singleton club).
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#8 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 15:50

As far as strength we so far have "11-17" and "not massive extra values", with example hands that have 14 and 19. Is there really so little agreement on strength?
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#9 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 15:54

I'd say there are two limits on strength:

(1) 2 is certainly not forcing and doesn't really suggest a game contract. Over a partner who couldn't bid 1M over 1 directly this is not a game-seeking bid. So the range is pretty wide, but responder is usually looking to pass 2 or maybe correct to 2M as a partial.

(2) With a very minimum opening and 6+, a lot of times you don't really want to defend 1X. The problem is that the club length (assuming some of your points are there) tends to reduce your defensive potential. So with something like 11-13 and a decent club suit it seems normal to just balance 2.

Combining these, I'd say the range is something like 14-18. It's "enough to defend 1X opposite a marginal penalty pass despite holding six clubs" but "not enough to have game opposite a partner who couldn't bid over 1."
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#10 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 15:57

jdonn, on Nov 20 2008, 01:50 PM, said:

As far as strength we so far have "11-17" and "not massive extra values", with example hands that have 14 and 19. Is there really so little agreement on strength?

I think that given partner could not muster up anything more than a 1 response when forced to bid, the strength is somewhat wider ranging. We might have a hand that would have bid 3 if partner had responded with 1, but now that we have dredged up partner to bid, we might decide it is prudent to rebid only 2. Of course, the auction itself would tend to imply that we probably have more than minimum strength (why else have the opponents only been able to bid 1 and then remain quiet thereafter?), but I guess it's possible to construct an auction where that is the case. Regardless, I don't think we will have game aspirations on this auction, so am not sure what the issue is here about deciding what the actual strength the bid shows and what the actual strength the 2 bidder is likely to have.
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#11 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 15:59

Echognome, on Nov 20 2008, 04:57 PM, said:

Regardless, I don't think we will have game aspirations on this auction, so am not sure what the issue is here about deciding what the actual strength the bid shows and what the actual strength the 2 bidder is likely to have.

I'm just curious. It would be nice to know if the opponents compete to 2 and you are trying to decide what partner expects you to have. In a GIB tourney I held Axx AKx x AKxxxx, but over 1 my rho bid 2 so I didn't have to worry about it. It just made the thought cross my mind.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#12 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 16:12

I agree that most of the suggested hands fit the auction, but I don't see why this can't be a good 4315 also. (or maybe 4225)

Maybe you think that hand should bid 1s? 2d? Wouldn't 4324 bid one of those also?
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#13 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 16:12

For me this shows a hand stronger than 2.

Other than that it is defined by what I didn't bid.

I didn't jump to 3 on the previous round - so I have less distribution or more flexibility than that.

I didn't pass or raise hearts so I don't have four hearts.

I didn't bid 1 (or 1) so I am unlikely to have four cards in spades.

That pretty much leaves hands with six clubs and around 18-19 points. Possibly a little weaker with a flexible 3=3=1=6 hand. Otherwise any x-x-x-6+ is possible. With great clubs and tricks I might have bid 3.
Wayne Burrows

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#14 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 16:24

jdonn, on Nov 20 2008, 03:50 PM, said:

As far as strength we so far have "11-17" and "not massive extra values", with example hands that have 14 and 19. Is there really so little agreement on strength?

It does show extra values, with a minimal hand with 6 clubs and not ideal takeout shape we would just bid 2. (Yes, we don't always get them when partner has a penalty pass.) Its clearly short of a game force but with, say, a maximum 2443 hand I would expect partner to bid once more.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#15 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 16:26

karlson, on Nov 20 2008, 04:12 PM, said:

I agree that most of the suggested hands fit the auction, but I don't see why this can't be a good 4315 also. (or maybe 4225)

Maybe you think that hand should bid 1s? 2d? Wouldn't 4324 bid one of those also?

These 54 hands would definitely bid 1S. With a 4324 hand, why wouldn't you pass 1?
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#16 User is offline   karlson 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 16:31

I was thinking 4324 18-19. I think those definitely have a shot at game opposite a 1h bid.
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#17 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 16:33

karlson, on Nov 20 2008, 02:31 PM, said:

I was thinking 4324 18-19. I think those definitely have a shot at game opposite a 1h bid.

I don't think so. Not opposite a hand that could not bid 1 over 1.
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#18 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 16:33

karlson, on Nov 20 2008, 05:31 PM, said:

I was thinking 4324 18-19. I think those definitely have a shot at game opposite a 1h bid.

I don't really think so...what type of hand would partner have where that is possible, if he didn't respond to our opening bid or jump to 2 over our double?
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#19 User is offline   kfay 

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Posted 2008-November-20, 16:34

Like I said I definitely think this shows extras (which is why my example hand is so strong).

This auction sounds forward-going even though partner couldn't muster a response over a 1 overcall. To me that shows some real power, not shape. But maybe this auction doesn't sound forward-going to others.

Besides, where the heck did all the HCP go? There's like zero bidding going on so it's very hard to believe that the 1 opener doesn't have the goods.

Edit: So I really think this also shows some pretty solid clubs.
Kevin Fay
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