[vuroth]

Playing SAYC

Scoring: MP

P 1♣ 1♠ ?

---

Kind of a two part question I guess.

Assuming there are hands that you would bid an immediate 3NT on, what is the minimum spade holding you would do this on?

Assuming you held a GF hand with what you felt would be an inadequate or uncertain spade stopper (modify the other suits as needed I guess), how would you expect the bidding to proceed to investigate a possible notrump contract?

Hands where I panic/brain freeze at the table are getting rarer (yay!), but this alas was one of them (boo).

Thanks,

V

[kenrexford]

This is kind of a misleading question, in a sense, because the hand is appropriate for a cue in support of clubs. Thus, I would tend to do that with most hands.

Plus, if I have too good of a hand, I cannot just bid 3NT.

So, assuming about 13-15 for 3NT, with 11 already known, I would then have a maximum of 4 HCP in spades, from which to create the right hand for a 3NT call, with only three spades.

KQ10 would be too strong.

So would AJ10, or even AJ9.

A109 seems wrong, also.

The only plausible holding, then, would be KJ10 or KJ9 or KJx.

So, I suppose the question is what bolster, if any, I would need for my KJ-third in spades.

As LHO's possession or non-possession of the Queen does not affect the strength of my position no matter what my bolster may be, that third card seems positionally irrelevant.

So, I suppose that KJx works, with any card for the "x."

That gives me ♠KJx ♥xx ♦AK10x ♣A109x.

That's a BIG 3NT hand, but maybe 3NT is a practical call.

[cherdano]

Always 2♠.

[FrancesHinden]

Sorry if this answer turns out to be a bit complicated.

The minimum spade holding for a 3NT bid is not a constant. It also depends on whether you have a suitably descriptive alternative bid. You are less likely to jump to 3NT over a 1S overcall than to bid 3NT over (say) a 3S, or even 2S, overcall where you have less room to investigate alternatives.

To take your sample hand as an example, I would not usually bid 3NT on any hand looking at nice 4-card club support and a low doubleton heart. I would bid 2S, showing at least invitational values with club support, and assuming partner doesn't do anything spectacular over that, bid 3NT next round to show that I had alternative contracts in mind.

Similarly, if I had 4 hearts, most of the time I would start with a negative double and bid 3NT next round.

A jump to 3NT over a 1S overcall should be a very specific hand-type, because it takes up a lot of room. Partner is denied any low-level opportunity to describe his hand to you. I would expect:

- A solid double spade stop
- about 13-15 HCP (good 12/bad 16 possible)
- a balanced hand, ideally with at least something in both red suits as well as the spade cards
- no more suitable alternative call. This means you are likely to be 4=3=3=3, 3=3=4=3, 4=3=4=2 or possibly have a fifth spade or poor club support.


Something like
KJ10x
Qxx
AQx
J10x

would be an ideal 3NT bid.

You don't always get dealt the perfect hand, but that's a good place to start.

[vuroth]

kenrexford, on Nov 17 2008, 12:56 PM, said:

This is kind of a misleading question, in a sense, because the hand is appropriate for a cue in support of clubs. Thus, I would tend to do that with most hands.

Hmm, maybe I'm getting some negative reinforcement from my partners. The last time I tried:

P 1♣ 1♠ 2♠

Partner couldn't figure out what 2♠ was. (Though if the suits had been reversed, partner would have immediately figure out that this was "limit raise or better".) If this is really a hand best suited to "limit raise or better in clubs" (with 5 clubs I'd be sure that was right, with 4 strong ones and a flattish hand I'm uncertain), then would:

P 1♣ 1♠ 2♠
P ?
- 2NT shows a spade stopper and game invite?
- 3NT shows a spade stopper and game force?
- 3♠ asks for a spade stopper (western cue bid)
- 3♣ shows a minimum club opener, presumably 4+ clubs
- anything else is GF, and I guess control showing??

Wow, I think I've just exceeded the legal limits for questions asked in one thread. Anyways.

I should stop now.

V

PS - Maybe I just need to read a book or three.

[han]

Edit: misread auction.

1C - (1S) - 2S - (p)
..

2NT: You can play this as forcing or non-forcing. If non-forcing then it shows a minimum and you would need to jump to 3NT with a balanced 14-count. If forcing (which is what I play, we play 2S is forcing through 3C) then you can play that 3NT shows 18-19.

3S would show extras without a good bid. It may or may not be balanced. I hate the term "stopper ask" because I think it is misleading, opener is not in a position to ask as responder is unlimited. Responder will often bid 3NT with stopper but is absolutely not forced to do so.

3C would be NF, 3D and 3H would be GF and natural.

[han]

vuroth, on Nov 17 2008, 01:08 PM, said:

PS - Maybe I just need to read a book or three.

Yes you should, and more than 3.

[FrancesHinden]

vuroth, on Nov 17 2008, 06:08 PM, said:

If this is really a hand best suited to "limit raise or better in clubs" (with 5 clubs I'd be sure that was right, with 4 strong ones and a flattish hand I'm uncertain), then would:

P 1♣ 1♠ 2♠
P ?
- 2NT shows a spade stopper and game invite?
- 3NT shows a spade stopper and game force?
- 3♠ asks for a spade stopper (western cue bid)
- 3♣ shows a minimum club opener, presumably 4+ clubs
- anything else is GF, and I guess control showing??

Now you are getting into muddy waters.
After 1C 1S 2S P

- 2NT shows a minimum balanced(ish) hand, ideally with a spade stop.
- 3NT shows a hand that wants to play 3NT opposite a limit raise in clubs, so a maximum weak NT or slightly off-shape strong NT with spades well stopped
- 3♠ initially asks for a spade stop, showing game forcing values and no good bid
- 3♣ shows a minimum opening bid, would like to have 4+ clubs
- anything else is GF, but I would assume it to be natural, not control-showing (however there may be significant dissenting views to this one).

If you are feeling observant, you will notice that there is no bid to show a minimum opening bid without four clubs and without a spade stop, e.g.
Jxx
KQxx
Axx
Kxx

It's a matter of partnership agreement whether you bid 2NT or 3C on this hand. I'm a 2NT bidder, but that won't be universal.

[vuroth]

Interesting. Apparently I've been asking the wrong questions.

So is every 10+ point
xxx
xx
xxxx
xxxx

hand worth a 2♠ bid? Am I even really marginal?

For the record, I held:

Scoring: MP

---

One bad experience with bidding 2♠ with a different partner talked me out of bidding it here, though to my credit the bid occurred to me.

At the table, the bidding went:
P 1♣ 1♠ 2♦
P 2♠ P 3♣ P
P P

And I found myself somewhat bewildered. Partner insisted that I must bid 3NT at some point, and I conceded that, with QTx, my stopper was probably good enough.

3♣ made, but for only 33% of the matchpoints, opposite a 3325 13 point hand.

The reason I asked here is that I'm trying hard not to let bad results influence my play, but apparently, that's exactly what I was doing here.

Thanks, folks. I really appreciate the straight talk.

han said:

vuroth, on Nov 17 2008, 01:08 PM, said:

PS - Maybe I just need to read a book or three.

Yes you should, and more than 3.

I'll take that advice to heart. Thanks.

V

[FrancesHinden]

han, on Nov 17 2008, 06:14 PM, said:

vuroth, on Nov 17 2008, 01:08 PM, said:

PS - Maybe I just need to read a book or three.

Yes you should, and more than 3.

Without wishing to depress you, reading books on bidding doesn't work as well as it used to if you are going to play a lot with pick-up partners online.

Most books on bidding explain, or at least assume, one particular style which may be played by 95% of people in the author's area (Poland, France, West Coast USA etc..) but be considered weird by others. That's fine if you are going to play with people in your region, but less so in such an international environment.

If you ask questions here, then when you get the same answer from sensible people from four different continents, you know that is universal. When reply 1 explains something as standard and 5 people jump on him saying that it isn't, you know it's subject to local variation.

[vuroth]

FrancesHinden, on Nov 17 2008, 01:18 PM, said:

If you are feeling observant, you will notice that there is no bid to show a minimum opening bid without four clubs and without a spade stop, e.g.
Jxx
KQxx
Axx
Kxx

It's a matter of partnership agreement whether you bid 2NT or 3C on this hand. I'm a 2NT bidder, but that won't be universal.

Yeah, that absence was bugging me. Thanks.

[han]

Not every hand with this shape but with these prime cards I would. Give me KJ10 AQ KJ10x xxxx and I would bid 3NT.

Now that you know 2S is a club raise, I hope you realize that it can never be right to bid 2D on this hand. Partner has bid clubs.

[han]

vuroth, on Nov 17 2008, 01:25 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Nov 17 2008, 01:18 PM, said:

If you are feeling observant, you will notice that there is no bid to show a minimum opening bid without four clubs and without a spade stop, e.g.
Jxx
KQxx
Axx
Kxx

It's a matter of partnership agreement whether you bid 2NT or 3C on this hand. I'm a 2NT bidder, but that won't be universal.

Yeah, that absence was bugging me. Thanks.

Here 3C still makes sense but on slightly different auctions (for example 1D - (2C) - 2S) you will be forced to rebid 2NT without a stopper.

[FrancesHinden]

vuroth, on Nov 17 2008, 06:23 PM, said:

Interesting. Apparently I've been asking the wrong questions.

So is every 10+ point
xxx
xx
xxxx
xxxx

hand worth a 2♠ bid? Am I even really marginal?

Most of them are a 2♠ bid.

Because they don't take up as much room, and because you have a weaker hand to start with, you can bid 1NT or 2NT a little more freely than 3NT.

AQx
Qx
Qxxx
Q10xx

looks more like a 2NT bid

QJx
Kx
Kxxx
Jxxx

is probably a 1NT bid, although

QJ10
K10
K109x
J109x

is a 2S or 2NT bid

Quote

For the record, I held:

Dealer: West Vul: N/S Scoring: MP

♠ QT4 ♥ 52 ♦ AKT8 ♣ AT94

One bad experience with bidding 2♠ with a different partner talked me out of bidding it here, though to my credit the bid occurred to me.

At the table, the bidding went:
P 1♣ 1♠ 2♦
P 2♠ P 3♣ P
P P

And I found myself somewhat bewildered.  Partner insisted that I must bid 3NT at some point, and I conceded that, with QTx, my stopper was probably good enough.

3♣ made, but for only 33% of the matchpoints, opposite a 3325 13 point hand.

The reason I asked here is that I'm trying hard not to let bad results influence my play, but apparently, that's exactly what I was doing here. 

Having cuebid 2S the round before, partner could not pass your 3C bid. With only a 13-count he didn't really have his cuebid, he had a 2NT or 3C bid, both of which show a minimum, over which you could have bid 3NT.

[vuroth]

No, I agree that 2♠ is the right bid.

After partner's 2♠ bid, I felt that 3♣ kept 3NT, 5+♣ and 5+♦ in play. I definitely felt like we were in a forcing auction. Thus, it felt right to show my clubs.

You know, this game was easier when I was ignorant of my mistakes.