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Question about a 2/1 sequence Balanced hands range

#1 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 07:18

The sequence:

1M 1NT
2NT

is used by many partnerships to show a balanced 18-19 HCP hand, reserving

1M 1NT
3NT

to show a solid 6-card Major suit with 16-18 HCP.

However, some people play the first sequence as showing a balanced hand with a strong no-trump range (which wasn't opened as 1NT because of the 5-card Major) and the second one for bal. 18-19 HCP. Is there any downside to playing this way? Is there a standard way of playing it? What does one way have over the other in terms of reaching bad contracts? Is the second version I described 'unplayable'?

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#2 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 08:13

System?

Meaning of 1NT, is it forcing, semi-forcing, nonforcing?

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#3 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 08:15

I assumed 2/1 GF system which needs a forcing No Trump structure.

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#4 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 09:07

Yes there are the obvious downsides.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#5 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 09:55

So obvious you can't even mention them?

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#6 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 12:01

Hanoi5, on Nov 21 2008, 10:55 AM, said:

So obvious you can't even mention them?

Responder doesn't get to show his hand. What shows a limit raise? What if he is very weak with a long minor, or a little stronger? What if he has 5 hearts and doesn't know if opener has 3?
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#7 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 12:04

Quote

Responder doesn't get to show his hand. What shows a limit raise?


Bidding 4 of the Major.

Quote

What if he is very weak with a long minor, or a little stronger?


You'll have to define a little stronger, but if he's weak he can jolly well bid his minor being non-forcing.

Quote

What if he has 5 hearts and doesn't know if opener has 3?


As Hearts are very important let's say 3m after 2NT is sign off but not 3, which would show the 10-12 hand with at least 5 hearts.

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#8 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 12:05

I meant over 3NT, if 3NT shows 18-19. It looks like you think I meant over 2NT?
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#9 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 12:08

Over 3NT responder can pass. Any other bid at the 4 level would be forward going, meaning 10+.

View Postwyman, on 2012-May-04, 09:48, said:

Also, he rates to not have a heart void when he leads the 3.


View Postrbforster, on 2012-May-20, 21:04, said:

Besides playing for fun, most people also like to play bridge to win


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#10 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 12:11

Hanoi5, on Nov 21 2008, 09:55 AM, said:

So obvious you can't even mention them?

How about
- you can't show the hand with a solid major and 16-18 in the style you suggest, and
- you might be too high with 15-17 opposite 6 hcp in 2NT?
Are these obvious enough?
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#11 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2008-November-21, 12:14

Hanoi5, on Nov 21 2008, 01:08 PM, said:

Over 3NT responder can pass. Any other bid at the 4 level would be forward going, meaning 10+.

Why do I feel like this is going in circles a little.

You ask what are the downsides to playing a 3NT rebid is 18-19 balanced. Say the auction goes 1 1NT 3NT.

- Responder can't show both a very weak hand with a minor, and a hand with a minor that might make game or slam.
- Responder can't search for a heart fit.
- Responder can't show a limit raise in spades abd a very weak raise where he meant to bid 1NT then 2.

And those are just problems over the 3NT rebid itself. Cherdano lists other obvious problems.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#12 User is offline   InTime 

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Posted 2008-November-22, 13:44

The 3NT rebid is a very space consuming bid. It should therefore be reserved to show a specific hand whatever you and you partner should agree on. After this bid, it is up to responder to place the final contract.

What I have seen Richie Reisig training the juniors on BBO is that:
1m/1M - 1Any
3NT is describing a solid 6-card suit (minor or major) 18-19 pts.
Regards
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