[gwnn]

ASkolnick, on Nov 13 2008, 04:44 PM, said:

Gwnn, for me and my partner it is since I have that agreement with partner.  It works well since it gives you both the invitational and the forcing hands together.  But if it was what people normally play.

I also play 1D,1X,2C as forcing as well, but with this hand it would not matter.
However, I think you should bid 2D since if partner can't make another call. you don't have game.

OK, then open a thread of your own. I didn't say "vanilla std continuations" without a reason. It means we're playing vanilla std, not your favourite system. Whether 2H is GF or not is probably not 100% established, but 2H transfer to 2S is not part of the system. You can advertise your methods in your thread. Alternatively, I think it's perfectly fine to advertise your methods + say what you'd bid without them (which is what your second post did. thanks)

[blackshoe]

Awful lot of disagreement for a "quick, simple question". :-)

2♥ is F1 in SAYC. Playing 2/1, it's less clear. Still, if you bid it, partner will not bid NT without a heart stopper, and will not raise spades without 3. So if he has neither, he'll rebid one of his minors - which will at least tell us which one has 5 cards. If he has more than a minimum, he should bid above 3♦, but will he?

[FrancesHinden]

blackshoe, on Nov 13 2008, 04:43 PM, said:

Awful lot of disagreement for a "quick, simple question". :-)

2♥ is F1 in SAYC. Playing 2/1, it's less clear. Still, if you bid it, partner will not bid NT without a heart stopper, and will not raise spades without 3. So if he has neither, he'll rebid one of his minors - which will at least tell us which one has 5 cards. If he has more than a minimum, he should bid above 3♦, but will he?

I disagree with one of your assumptions.
OK, I'm hardly an SAYC expert, but I would expect any sane partner to bid 2S over 2H FSF non-FG with a doubleton and no obviously better call.

This type of hand works well for playing 2H as non-FG. We bid 2H, and we play in 2S opposite, say,

Jx
xx
KQxxx
KQxx

(although partner might have bid 1NT with that)

[hatchett]

Nothing is good here but I prefer 3♣. It doesn't wrongside as 2NT potentially does, is more constructive than 2♦ and gives partner a chance to practice playing 4-3 fits

[RichMor]

FrancesHinden, on Nov 13 2008, 11:49 AM, said:

I disagree with one of your assumptions.
OK, I'm hardly an SAYC expert, but I would expect any sane partner to bid 2S over 2H FSF non-FG with a doubleton and no obviously better call.

This type of hand works well for playing 2H as non-FG.  We bid 2H, and we play in 2S opposite, say,

Jx
xx
KQxxx
KQxx

(although partner might have bid 1NT with that)

Frances,

Agree. If opener is 3-1-5-4 or 3-1-4-5 with a minimum, then opener would tend to raise a 1♠ response.

If opener has the same pattern and a maximum then opener would tend to bid 3♠ after a 4th suit 2♥ rebid.

So the sequence
1♦ - 1♠
2♣ - 2♥
2♠
tends to show honor doubleton.

[kenberg]

I have never known the answer here and it gives me some comfort to see that no one else much does either.

I try to avoid this problem by opening 1C and rebidding 2C on decent five card suits . So on this auction it is true that I could have five clubs and four diamonds but it is not very likely. I know this rebid on a decent five is regarded as nuts by many but also 1C-1S-2C at least somewhat limits the hand. Part of the problem here is that opener can have a pretty strong hand when he begins 1D-1S-2C, so you cannot really pass with the posted hand(although on many hands it will work out well). Whatever the theory, I have had good luck with that approach. Others (Steve Robinson I believe, so not just nuts like me) solve the problem by 1C-1S-1N on a stiff and five clubs, four diamonds. If forbidden to rebid 2C on five, I would adopt this approach to avoid the posted ambiguity. There is no easy way out as far as I know.

I do think there is a lot to be said for the specific auction 1D-1S-2C-2H as being a one round force rather than a game force (SAYC-like bidding or 2/1 doesn't matter). Probably even more to be said for some of the more extensive agreements mentioned. But with the stipulated plain vanilla, and with presumably a sort of standardly frequent possibility of four diamonds and five clubs, I still say a prayer and bid 2D. Opponents like to balance, Praise the Lord.

[han]

RichMor, on Nov 13 2008, 02:53 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Nov 13 2008, 11:49 AM, said:

I disagree with one of your assumptions.
OK, I'm hardly an SAYC expert, but I would expect any sane partner to bid 2S over 2H FSF non-FG with a doubleton and no obviously better call.

This type of hand works well for playing 2H as non-FG.  We bid 2H, and we play in 2S opposite, say,

Jx
xx
KQxxx
KQxx

(although partner might have bid 1NT with that)

Frances,

Agree. If opener is 3-1-5-4 or 3-1-4-5 with a minimum, then opener would tend to raise a 1♠ response.

If opener has the same pattern and a maximum then opener would tend to bid 3♠ after a 4th suit 2♥ rebid.

So the sequence
1♦ - 1♠
2♣ - 2♥
2♠
tends to show honor doubleton.

Or a small doubleton.

[blackshoe]

FrancesHinden, on Nov 13 2008, 12:49 PM, said:

I disagree with one of your assumptions.
OK, I'm hardly an SAYC expert, but I would expect any sane partner to bid 2S over 2H FSF non-FG with a doubleton and no obviously better call.

Okay, that's fair enough. Perhaps I should have said most of my partners would not bid spades without 3. They're sane, most of them, but...