[Codo]

[quote name='OleBerg' date='Nov 14 2008, 05:58 PM'] Of course the hand is well-suited to play 3nt, which will often make. The point I was trying to make, was that it was also well suited for play in Clubs. [/quote]
A hand is well suited for clubs if:
1. You have a side suit wide open and can control it by ruffing
2. You have ruffing values
3. You have a side suit which will be running after a ruff or two.

Nothing is true about this hand. So, this hand screams: NT NT NT.

However:
[QUOTE]
12 tricks might eassily be on facing an unbalanced minimum, on which partner will always pass. The real embarrasing ones, are the ones where 3nt is down and 6[cl] is making:

[sp] xx
[he] x
[di] AQxx
[cl] KQxxxx

<snip> [/QUOTE]

now this hands screams Clubs, clubs clubs, so partner, who has a perfect picture from our hand will never pass 3 NT.

[QUOTE]
At least playing teams, partner should remove
3NT with this hand.

[/QUOTE]
And he will be down in 4nt or 5[cl] facing a lot of hands with fewer controls.

With my example hand, 5[cl] is doomed, and 4nt is much tougher than 3.[/QUOTE]

Okay, construct hands, where we have stopper in all side suits, a balanced hand and 4 NT or 5 Club have no play opposite your example hand.

QJx
KQx
KJx
Jxxx

IS more or the less the only hand I can come up with, which fits to our bid put gives 3 NT a good chance and 4 NT and 5 Club will fail. I wouldn't have sleepless nights about this remote possibility.

[OleBerg]

Just two last examples, and I'll leave this alone:

♠ Qxx
♥ x
♦ AQx
♣ KQxxxx

6♣ is laydown, 3nt is dead.


♠ x
♥ Qxx
♦ AQX
♣ KQxxxx

3nt is laydown, 6♣ is dead.

[hotShot]

The given system description says:
3NT (13-15 balanced, usually no four card major)
This describes perfectly what we have.
In a well designed system, the 2♣ bid should not include hands that can be described using a different bid.
If I were the opener, I would expect 18+ HCP, if I get to know your shape or make sure that we play ♣, if I learn about your strength, because I expect an unbalanced hand with 5♣ now.

[Codo]

OleBerg, on Nov 14 2008, 08:58 PM, said:

Just two last examples, and I'll leave this alone:

♠ Qxx
♥ x
♦ AQx
♣ KQxxxx

6♣ is laydown, 3nt is dead.


♠ x
♥ Qxx
♦ AQX
♣ KQxxxx

3nt is laydown, 6♣ is dead.

No need to pass 3 NT with your hands.
You have at least one shortage where opps have at least 9 cards.

If you pass these hands, you gamble that partner has a hand where 3 NT is making, but 5 Club is worse. This is possible at mps, but it is on your own risk.
At imps it is mandatory to bid on and I would also bid 4 Club (of course forcing) after 3 NT at mps too.

[gnasher]

Codo, on Nov 14 2008, 01:28 PM, said:

If you pass these hands, you gamble that partner has a hand where 3 NT is making, but 5 Club is worse. This is possible at mps, but it is on your own risk.
At imps it is mandatory to bid on and I would also bid 4 Club (of course forcing) after 3 NT at mps too.

Yes, but will you reach 6♣ opposite OleBerg's first example and 5♣ or 4NT opposite his second?

[Codo]

Ok, I misunderstood the question, sorry.

Actually, I must confess, I had reached 6 Club on both hands. (I use 4 Club as quatitative and KC, so after a 4 club bid, responder had shown maximum and enough KCs to bid the small slam. This had not worked well with Oles hands- at least not with both).

[OleBerg]

Well, I simply cannot let things rest.

hotShot, on Nov 14 2008, 02:04 PM, said:

If I were the opener, I would expect 18+ HCP, if I get to know your shape or make sure that we play ♣, if I learn about your strength, because I expect an unbalanced hand with 5♣ now.

Which is why I wrote:

"I agree that 2♣ should not deny 13-15 and a balanced hand."

but if I have to call this hand 16 hcp to be allowed to bid 2♣, then fine by me.

[OleBerg]

Codo, on Nov 14 2008, 01:42 PM, said:

Quote

12 tricks might eassily be on facing an unbalanced minimum, on which partner will always pass. The real embarrasing ones, are the ones where 3nt is down and 6♣ is making:

♠ xx
♥ x
♦ AQxx
♣ KQxxxx

<snip>

now this hands screams Clubs, clubs clubs, so partner, who has a perfect picture from our hand will never pass 3 NT.

So you pull 3nt, only to find partner with:

♠ AJ10
♥ QJ10
♦ J32
♣ AJ109

3nt is the last safe spot. 4nt is on a finesse, and 5♣ will need the ♦K singleton or doubleton onside.

[ASkolnick]

Like JDonn said, we play 2N as forcing. It lets responder describe his hand, if its balanced we stop in 3N, if he has real clubs, we can look for slam.