[cherdano]

FrancesHinden, on Nov 12 2008, 11:22 AM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 12 2008, 04:56 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Nov 12 2008, 11:13 AM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 12 2008, 11:10 AM, said:

- I bet you have never had it passed and made exactly 9 tricks.

You lose.

Then you need a refresher on what a 4 minor opening looks like

Well, if it ever happened, I'd expect it to be something like

Ax
QJ10
AKQJxxxx
-

opposite

xx
-
xxxx
QJ109xxx

where the pre-empt does nothing much more than stop the preemptive suit

Why not

KQxx
JT9x
AQx
Ax

opposite
x
x
xxx
KQJxxxxx

where we have plenty of tricks, but they get 4 tricks first...

[skjaeran]

I've played Namyats ages ago, but the hand "never" came up.

The natural preempt hands DO come up pretty frequently, and preempting 4m is the worst level for opps - there's little room for exploration and you're not at the 5-level, where most of the time they'll just double you and take their plus (which might easily be 5-800 or more).

[ArtK78]

cherdano, on Nov 12 2008, 12:27 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Nov 12 2008, 11:22 AM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 12 2008, 04:56 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Nov 12 2008, 11:13 AM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 12 2008, 11:10 AM, said:

- I bet you have never had it passed and made exactly 9 tricks.

You lose.

Then you need a refresher on what a 4 minor opening looks like

Well, if it ever happened, I'd expect it to be something like

Ax
QJ10
AKQJxxxx
-

opposite

xx
-
xxxx
QJ109xxx

where the pre-empt does nothing much more than stop the preemptive suit

Why not

KQxx
JT9x
AQx
Ax

opposite
x
x
xxx
KQJxxxxx

where we have plenty of tricks, but they get 4 tricks first...

There are a number of situations in which 3NT may be the right contract. You are touching upon a few of them.

Have you never heard partner open 4 of a minor naturally and you had a hand where you wanted to bid 3NT? At least when partner is required to open 3NT on such a hand you can pass, even if you are likely wrong-siding the contract.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Nov 12 2008, 04:10 PM, said:

Have you never heard partner open 4 of a minor naturally and you had a hand where you wanted to bid 3NT? At least when partner is required to open 3NT on such a hand you can pass, even if you are likely wrong-siding the contract.

My point is, who is to say a wrongsided 3NT is better than a rightsided 4NT even in those (uncommon) cases? So the 'advantage' is barely that, if at all.

[ArtK78]

jdonn, on Nov 12 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Nov 12 2008, 04:10 PM, said:

Have you never heard partner open 4 of a minor naturally and you had a hand where you wanted to bid 3NT?  At least when partner is required to open 3NT on such a hand you can pass, even if you are likely wrong-siding the contract.

My point is, who is to say a wrongsided 3NT is better than a rightsided 4NT even in those (uncommon) cases? So the 'advantage' is barely that, if at all.

And who says that a 4NT response to 4 of a minor is to play? Do you know with certainty that your partner will pass your 4NT bid (assuming that you don't announce "4 FINAL NT!")?

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Nov 12 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 12 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Nov 12 2008, 04:10 PM, said:

Have you never heard partner open 4 of a minor naturally and you had a hand where you wanted to bid 3NT?  At least when partner is required to open 3NT on such a hand you can pass, even if you are likely wrong-siding the contract.

My point is, who is to say a wrongsided 3NT is better than a rightsided 4NT even in those (uncommon) cases? So the 'advantage' is barely that, if at all.

And who says that a 4NT response to 4 of a minor is to play? Do you know with certainty that your partner will pass your 4NT bid (assuming that you don't announce "4 FINAL NT!")?

Yes, that is the standard expert agreement and it's widely known. But nice try

[benlessard]

Preempt in minors are surely underrated, but opening 1M with a no-loser no quick trick is just so bad that I prefer Namyats.

[pigpenz]

ArtK78, on Nov 12 2008, 10:55 AM, said:

Despite the consensus of opinion about how theoretically defective the 3NT bid showing a weak preempt of 4 of a minor may be, the fact remains that I have not had any bad results playing this method. So, while you may argue that you give your opponents more options by using the 3NT bid in this manner, in real life it does not seem to work out badly.

yes it has also been very successful for me, but we changes our 3 minor pre empts to be a little bit more solid

[ArtK78]

pigpenz, on Nov 13 2008, 10:26 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Nov 12 2008, 10:55 AM, said:

Despite the consensus of opinion about how theoretically defective the 3NT bid showing a weak preempt of 4 of a minor may be, the fact remains that I have not had any bad results playing this method.  So, while you may argue that you give your opponents more options by using the 3NT bid in this manner, in real life it does not seem to work out badly.

yes it has also been very successful for me, but we changes our 3 minor pre empts to be a little bit more solid

Probably not as solid as mine.

My requirement, in first and second seats, is a suit headed by AQ, AK or better.

This reduces the frequency of 3 of a minor preempts, but when they do occur, they are great for determining whether you can make 3NT based on a running suit or whether you can double the opponents who have the temerity to bid over your preempt.