[vuroth]

Playing with a pickup partner, what is the minimum hand you would raise a 3♥ overcall to 4♥, vulnerable.

How much of a difference does MPs vs IMPs make?

[FrancesHinden]

Hi

A 3♥ overcall of what?
- a weak 2♠ or 3m opening?
- a weak 2♦ opening?
- a 1m opening?
- a 1♠ opening?
- a 1NT opening?

The answer is different for each of these...

[vuroth]

eek!

I'm nearly positive it was 1minor

[ArtK78]

So your partner preempted 3♥ over 1 of a minor?

It depends on vulnerability, the form of scoring and what you are trying to accomplish.

4♥ is right on strong hands where you believe you can make game opposite a typical 3♥ preempt.

It is also right to bid 4♥ with a good fit and a shortness outside as a further preemptive action.

On the other hand, if you have many hearts, there are two ways to go - preempt violently (such as 5♥ or 6♥) or attempt to conceal the big heart fit from the opponents by passing.

There are many options. The choice of the correct one depends on many factors, and may be debateable on any given hand.

[vuroth]

Alright, maybe I should just share my disaster story.

Playing with a very good partner in a club game.

Scoring: MP

Not impossible that I was 4/2 in minors

P 1♣ 3♥ (totally forget)
4♥ all pass

---

My reasoning was that partner shouldn't be more than -500/down 2, vulnerable. Looking at 2.5 tricks, I took a stab at a vulnerable game.

Only after the fact did I remember I was playing MPs, not IMPs.

The look on partner's face as soon as I bid told me that he felt that there was no hand that would pass initially that should raise to game.

I pretty much concede that my bid was overzealous. What I'm curious about is how overzealous my bid was. (For example, if the K♠ is changed to an ace, should I try, even if only at IMPs? - granted some people would open 11 points 5332 with 2 aces)

[helene_t]

vuroth, on Nov 4 2008, 04:46 PM, said:

The look on partner's face as soon as I bid told me that he felt that there was no hand that would pass initially that should raise to game.

A passed hand could easily have four or five hearts. So of course there are passed hands that would raise partner's preempt.

[FrancesHinden]

A 3♥ overcall of a 1m opener usually looks much like an opening 3♥ pre-empt - at vul against not, it should be a fairly serious hand.

If you deciding whether to raise at that vulnerability, assume partner has roughly a 7-card heart suit with one loser, and possibly a card outside.

As you say, you have the ace of diamonds and a good heart card, and an outside king. If partner has AQJ to 7 hearts and an outside card, that is 7 heart tricks, the ace of diamonds, his card (the king of clubs, or the king of diamonds, say)... and then you need the king of spades to be a trick as well as his card working.

I would not be expecting to make 4H here, it seems to be asking for a lot.

When you are a passed hand, partner's 3H bid has a wider range, but vul against not the difference is not so great (at favourable vulnerability he could have absolutely anything).

Of course there are hands, even passed hands, that can raise. But they usually have decent trump support and a shortage outside. Let's say

KQxxx
xxxx
Axx
x

don't forget that intermediate heart honours (K/Q/J) are less useful than they might otherwise be, as you are finessing through opener's hand.

[cherdano]

Don't look for rules in any of these situations. You and partner should discuss what your 3♥ preempts look like (and no, hardly anybody plays rule of 2,3,4 anymore). Then imagine typical hands for partner, and try to decide whether game is odds on or not (i.e. exactly what Frances has done above).
In practice you will find that you hardly ever raise partner's preempt as a passed hand without a big fit, or a fit and shortness.
All those "rules of 17" about when to raise a preempt or a preemptive jump will only hurt not help your bidding judgment in the long run.

[P_Marlowe]

vuroth, on Nov 4 2008, 10:46 AM, said:

Alright, maybe I should just share my disaster story.

Playing with a very good partner in a club game.

Scoring: MP

Not impossible that I was 4/2 in minors

P 1♣ 3♥ (totally forget)
4♥ all pass

---

My reasoning was that partner shouldn't be more than -500/down 2, vulnerable.  Looking at 2.5 tricks, I took a stab at a vulnerable game.

Only after the fact did I remember I was playing MPs, not IMPs.

The look on partner's face as soon as I bid told me that he felt that there was no hand that would pass initially that should raise to game.

I pretty much concede that my bid was overzealous.  What I'm curious about is how overzealous my bid was.  (For example, if the K♠ is changed to an ace, should I try, even if only at IMPs? - granted some people would open 11 points 5332 with 2 aces)

Hi,

At worst -500? Did they bid game?
If not, and if they would have let you play 3H (-1),
than you talk about giving them a present of +400
or more points.

If they would have let you play 3H, you only bid game
with the intention to make, meaning you need a fair
chance of making.
The fact that you are a passed hand allowes partner
to be a little bit more agressive trying to increase the
pressure, i.e. the 3H bid may be lighter, as it would be
the case, if you did not yet pass.
Of course, ... partner may also be stronger than usual,
you dont know / you are guessing.

Since you are a passed hand, the opponents have it a lot
easier to get you.

As it is giving your defence you should pass, you are strong
enough to have a fair chance of beating their game, but you
are not strong enough to have high confidence, that your
side has game.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[vuroth]

As it turned out, we were down 1. I *think* we always make 3 on sharp declarer play, though I think we got a defensive play that made it easier.

Alas, our opponents weren't making anything, so scoring in the minus was a low board. +140 would have been a clear top.

Thanks, everyone.

V