[H_KARLUK]

Scoring: IMP

---

This is a deal when i am one of 15 kibitzers a few minutes ago on MBC.

Unfortunately EW picked 3N+4

The auction was :

1D (1H) 1S P
1Nt P 3NT End.

HQ led

[Edmunte1]

Bidding 1NT by West is ridiculous, bidding 3NT by East is very poor too. Please post serious posts, not this garbage.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 Which system did E/W play?
I doubt, they play 15-17.

#2 Assuming the 1NT rebid showes 16-18 (?!),
which would be highly unusal, East should
make a move toward slam, not a hard move,
but a move.
Of course 3NT is also not a real expert bid,
sry, we have 6 card suit, most likely, we
already have shown 5 spades, but besides
probing for slam, at least suggesting spades
as a possible contract is a slightly bettert than
blasting 3NT, I am nice, am I not?

#3 The 1H overcall is fine, the lead is also fine.

#4 How to reach the slam? We may suggest a route,
assuming we have an idea, what E/W play.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: For that matter, discussing the auction would be
more approbriate in the B/I section.

[hotShot]

E/W were lucky because after ♣ lead they could score 3NT-1.
After the 1♥ overcall both E and W bid NT they should have good ♥ stopper for that. So leading ♥Q would not be my first choice.

[H_KARLUK]

I always respect expertise. One of my online partners (89-90) Mr Dan Zara of Bucarest (a real gentleman) may claim there's no doubt in my words.

On the other hand when I joined the table saw "only West" logged as a Star. ( I promised myself to keep the privacy). Then I taught maybe it's a teaching table. Eventually I tried to look profiles.

Movie told me 16 scores recorded on board 8 and bottom 3 pairs reached 6. All ended with +1.

I am really sorry if this sample would be better posted on B/I forum. Seems I am wrong hoping to read some technical analyse on double dummy.

Frankly speaking I am just here to get involved with Bridge Issues. I m a grown up and I care politeness. I avoid to offend forum members.

Point taken.
Thanks.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

dont get me wrong, the questions you are asking, are valid,
and you will get responses, but in the B/I section those
responses will be a lot more helpful.

As it is, you could have asked, how to reach 6? playing
SA or 2/1, with or without a 1H overcall.

The play should not be a problem, even I can count 12
tricks, ... and I am not really Adv. if it comes to play.
................................................................................

Assuming SAYC + some gadgets, it may go

1D ... (1) - (1H) .... - 1S (2) - (Pass)
2NT . (3) - (Pass) . - 3C (4) - (Pass)
3D ... (5) - (Pass) . - 4D (6)
... (7)

(1) could be 3 cards, with 3-3 in the minors 1C opening,
with 4-4, 1D
(2) 5 spades
(3) 18-19 bal., heart stopper, most likely denying a 3
card spade suit, but 4333 may still be possible
(4) NMF
(5) 5 diamonds, no 4 hearts, no 3 spades
(6) natural and forcing
at this point in time responder knows, the partnership
has two 8 card fits (diamonds and spades), 29-30 HCP
and 4 cards in clubs
=> Playing IMPs you can be fairly sure, that 5D will make,
and you wont loose a lot vs. 3NT, and 3NT may even go
down due to a possible club weakness, so you can and should
make a move toward 6D.
(7) you will reach somehow 6D.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[H_KARLUK]

Rehi,

Thank you very much Marlowe.

Very nice of you. I believe bridge players are not robots.

My archives and experiences proved even in top class contests anything is possible anytime.

Sorry, I could not find a great originality at that moment like some of my other posts in adv/exp forum. I admit it was ordinary. Anyway i am surprised 13 of 16 tables failed to find correct answer. This coincidence amazed me. They might probably produced better crops different times, different boards but not for that deal.

Then I thought it would be fine to analyse that deal.

Seems wrong timing and wrong address. I ll try to be more careful.

Sincerely
Hamdi

[Edmunte1]

Hamdi, i didn't want to offend you in any way, just posting such atrocious bidding on adv/expert forum seems rather inappropriatte. Better you just should have posted the board and asked which is the right way to find 6♦/6♠, and you'll see it's not very easy, and that's the reason why only 3 out of 16 pairs found it. The main reson is that the cumulated strength of both hands is at the bottom end of slam potential, and the club shortage is essential in reducing the cumulated force (up to 27, just ignore ♣Q) and finding the right strain.
I sugest in a advanced+ partnership something like:

1♦ -(1♥)-1♠
2NT-4♣ -splinter for ♠
4NT-etc

But in a random BBO partnership it will be difficult to find the slam.

[P_Marlowe]

Edmunte1, on Nov 3 2008, 08:55 AM, said:

<snip>
But in a random BBO partnership it will be difficult to find the slam.

I agree.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[H_KARLUK]

Rehi,

Okay friends. I really did not read any acid tongue reaction. Neither of us violated nor damaged ethics. No worries please

Your ideas are valuable. I am open to positive criticism.

Shortly, i am getting used to see quick analyses by some very strong software and from fine qualified friends no matter players ranking when i play chess in serious websites. So that was my mistake I asked adv/exp class views abt that blind spot on this forum.

I expect each deal is a new different problem and when everything looks easy then I need to think extra 10 seconds.

I wish to all many happy days and more successfull careers.

Have fun pls.
Regards

Hamdi

[pclayton]

H_KARLUK, on Nov 3 2008, 03:07 AM, said:

I always respect expertise. One of my online partners (89-90) Mr Dan Zara of Bucarest (a real gentleman) may claim there's no doubt in my words.

On the other hand when I joined the table saw "only West" logged as a Star. ( I promised myself to keep the privacy). Then I taught maybe it's a teaching table. Eventually I tried to look profiles.

Movie told me 16 scores recorded on board 8 and bottom 3 pairs reached 6. All ended with +1.

I am really sorry if this sample would be better posted on B/I forum. Seems I am wrong hoping to read some technical analyse on double dummy.

Frankly speaking I am just here to get involved with Bridge Issues. I m a grown up and I care politeness. I avoid to offend forum members.

Point taken.
Thanks.

The is an auction perpetuated by novices. Both the 1N and the 3N bid are evidence of a serious lack of fundamentals.

This is not 'acid tongue' and its not 'an ethics issue', and sorry if I'm not being 'polite', but as Edmunte says, this hand does not belong in the A/E.

If EW ended up in 4♠, then we might have a sensible discussion about why slam was missed.

[H_KARLUK]

pclayton,

I couldn't imagine your post here "objective".

I said West logged as "BBO Star" nick. I looked other's profile. One of them was private and rest 2 were experts. Could not see any sys or gadget.

I also said 13 of 16 BBO pairs on movie failed on MBC. This amazed me. So i tried to read this forum members "technical views". I did not want to offend anyone.

Edmunte and Marlowe tried to draw a big picture and i am convinced. Why i am supposed to read third time "this hand does not belong in the A/E" tho i assured everybody to be more careful from now on?

This deal also may seen not belongs to A/E at first sight.

Scoring: IMP

1♦,pass,2♦, 2♥,3 NT. End.
2of ♥led. East won Ace and back knave.

---

Not unreasonably, declarer played low. Tried to block the suit.

But the full deal was so :

Scoring: IMP

---

Let's be honest, if i prove it was from 1963 Bermuda Bowl competition and th USA pair Robinson & Jordan pulled a fast one on the Argentine declarer; so would it belong to A/E and if i do not give clues it would belong to B/I in your mind?

You or anyone may think about me before I explain event and players : omg, this guy is a thick head one!

And after I claimed the fact :Uh oh, now everything changed, i suspected they are beginners.

Would not be unfair and double std? I wld post it part1, part2 etc. And you might misguess. I do not see anything wrong.

As i declared I only wanted to see the others analyse. I don't think it shatters the world. In my perspective names were not important. It was one of a hundred mistakes seen everyday. But I could not ignore the reasoning.

Sometimes there are tough situations at bridge tables "thin than a hair". Perhaps you would agree.

Whatever, happy bridging to all. I'm sorry, english is not my native lingo.

p.s. The options on poll bid by 16 pairs in the field. I checked and when i could not find why too much aberration then i jumped here.

[TimG]

H_KARLUK, on Nov 3 2008, 12:23 PM, said:

But the full deal was so :

Scoring: IMP

---

Let's be honest, if i prove it was from 1963 Bermuda Bowl competition and th USA pair Robinson & Jordan pulled a fast one on the Argentine declarer; so would it belong to A/E and if i do not give clues it would belong to B/I in your mind?

You or anyone may think about me before I explain event and players : omg, this guy is a thick head one!

This is not an uncommon position (if even I know about it....). Declarer guessing wrong is not a sign that he is a fool or an expert. Bidding as the "star" did in the hand that started this thread is an indication that the player is not very good or that there is something we don't know about the meanings of his calls.

BBO star often does not mean much regarding player skill and self-proclaimed experts are...well, they could be anything. The self-proclaimed experts in this forum are an entirely different matter.

[pclayton]

LOL, the Jordan / Robinson hand is pretty famous. It is also featured in one of the Killing Defense books (that is required reading for ALL intermediates).

This hand has nothing to do with the hand you posted. The two hands are as similar as ice cream and fertilizer.

I was going to cut you a little slack, but my patience is very limited today

[awm]

Perhaps the important observation is that expert players frequently make mistakes. They will quite often get a double-dummy position wrong. Sometimes they will make judgement mistakes that are wrong single-dummy as well. Expert (or world-class) does not mean mistake-free. It is easy to cherry-pick hands where the best players in the world made a mistake.

However, when an expert player makes a mistake you can normally infer what he was thinking. There is generally a reason -- like ducking the heart hoping that LHO lead from Kxx and the suit blocks. Sure, declarer was wrong. Maybe ducking wasn't even the percentage play (hard to know). But there was a reason for the play and it was easy to imagine a situation where it might have worked out.

In contrast, the bidding on the first hand of this thread is pretty nonsensical. West's 1NT rebid (assuming standard methods) under-evaluates his hand by more than an ace. Why would he do this? This action is very likely to miss a game or slam. If he were playing weak notrump it might be marginally understandable (even then an underbid). And east's 3NT bid is also ridiculous, especially at IMP scoring. Sure, there are cases where 3NT makes and 4♠ fails, but you have a huge amount of room to investigate and the singleton club is a definite danger sign.

[H_KARLUK]

Your words "LOL, the Jordan / Robinson hand is pretty famous. It is also featured in one of the Killing Defense books (that is required reading for ALL intermediates)."
In that book Foreword p.11 ALBERT BENJAMIN'S-(Glasgow) words :
"You will find in the following pages a superb collection of deals illustrating every advanced phase of the subject. Fresh light is cast on the old familiar situations but the major part of this important work covers virgin territory previously untrodden."

That is the reason I believe him and it is not required for only intermediates.

I smile, maybe you are avoiding all traps and do your best each time in every deal at bridge tables.

p.s. Sleep gently Mr Albert Benjamin. Amen.
http://www.ebu.co.uk/general/biographies/o...ertbenjamin.htm

[hotShot]

If you post to the B/I board, potential poster will know that explanations are desired.
If you post to the A/E forum, potential poster will assume that you have performed your own analysis already and are locking for opinions.