[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

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West North East South

 1♣    Pass  1♠    Pass
 2NT   Pass  3♦    Pass
 3♠    Pass  4♦    Pass
 4♥    Pass  4♠    Pass
 4NT   Pass  5♥    Pass
 6♠    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

This is the entire bidding, my question is after 2NT do you play systems on (stayman etc), and the thing I would like to know is would 3 hearts mean a transfer to spades to show 5 spades or how shuld it be played, I am not critisising the bidding at all, I only wanted to know how people play after the 2NT bid

[kenrexford]

The bidding is foreign and strange.

But, I would expect a more modern approach to be that 3♥ shows five spades without four hearts, as you suggest. 3♦, in the transfers approach, would handle hands with 55 or 54 in the majors.

There does seem to be a merit in what you seem to be suggesting, namely that 3♦ as a transfer could handle the 55 majors hands, whereas 3♣, as "stayman" could handle the 5-4 major hands. If Opener does bid 3♦ after 3♣, then I suppose Responder could bid 3♥ to show 5440 with presumably 4-card support for Opener's minor and slammish. I suppose, as well, that 3♠ immediately over 2NT could be a slam move with support in Opener's minor but not a fifth spade and not four hearts.

Does anyone do something like that?

[sceptic]

I was thinking more 3 spades over 2nt was slammish with 6 spades

[the hog]

I find this bidding weird. If you play a strong NT you have a NT opening.
3S should show 6 S. After a 2NT bid we play 3C as an artificial gf checkback. Ken as always overcomplicates matters.

[ArtK78]

There is nothing odd about this bidding.

West clearly thought his hand was too strong for 1NT in his methods. Whether you agree or disagree, that is obviously a given.

East bid New Minor Forcing over 2NT.

The rest followed.

Cold for 13 tricks. What's the problem?

Seriously, on a non-diamond lead this is an excellent slam. On a diamond lead, it is not so good, but, as I said, it is cold for 13 tricks on this layout.

[kenrexford]

ArtK78, on Oct 31 2008, 09:20 PM, said:

There is nothing odd about this bidding.

West clearly thought his hand was too strong for 1NT in his methods. Whether you agree or disagree, that is obviously a given.

East bid New Minor Forcing over 2NT.

The rest followed.

Cold for 13 tricks. What's the problem?

Seriously, on a non-diamond lead this is an excellent slam. On a diamond lead, it is not so good, but, as I said, it is cold for 13 tricks on this layout.

A contract is not typically described as "cold" if you have a decision to make in trumps. With a diamond lead, you don't make the small slam if you decide to play spades for Kx-10xx.

The weird part about the auction, IMO, is that Opener, who has upgraded his hand (appropriately) does not seem to have just cause to further upgrade his hand all the way to a unilateral 4NT bid, and then to insist the slam after the 5♥ response. I could understand a 5♣ cue instead of 4NT, considering the reality that his hand is primed out, but 4NT...6♠ seems quite aggressive.

My auction would be different, but that is not critical. What is critical, IMO, is that Opener has no idea in this auction that Responder has the club Queen. Inm my auction, Responder would have cued the club Queen, changing the focus as to who does what. But, in the actual auction, again, this issue is a mystery, meriting Opener at least indicating the motive for his probe and seeking further advice from partner.

[benlessard]

4Nt looks like an overbid but other than that the bidding is fine. AK,AK and 5 card suit is a correct upgrade to 1C/2Nt. If Ken say your bidding is strange and foreign, don't worry you are on the good track. (I just couldnt resist on this 1)

[mike777]

now 1nt=3nt=pass?

[sceptic]

sorry all opener played weak NT but the 2NT continuation was the thing I was curious about

[1eyedjack]

Once you have (rightly or wrongly) evaluated the hand as too strong for a "strong NT" opener it makes no difference whether you were playing a strong NT or weak NT (with strong 1N rebid). In either method you would start 1-suit and jump rebid NT as you did here.

After a 2N rebid I do not think it sensible to use the same continuations as a 2N opener. To do so throws away the advantage gained from having bid 2 suits on the way. Also I play the 2N rebid as GF, which perhaps argues against upgrading too many 17 counts to fit the rebid (and even so can occasionally get you too high), but makes the subsequent continuations a bit easier.

[gwnn]

I think some weak NT systems have the following ladder:

12-14 open 1NT
15-16 rebid NT
17-18 jump rebid NT
19-20 rebid 3NT
21-22 open 2NT

but maybe I'm wrong. If this was the ladder then it's quite obvious to rebid 2NT. If this wasn't the ladder then I think it's still right to rebid, though not that clear.

[H_KARLUK]

I wld start with 1N as West. East navigates well. Such as 2H, then 2S and 3D etc.

Over 2NT rebid I play natural.

[Wackojack]

FWIIW, this is Johnny Foreigner's thoughts sitting West:

I know that my partner (intermediate Acol player) was taught to play 1NT rebid as 15-17. (15-16 the norm in Acol but 15-17 is gaining ground) I am going to uprate this hand to 18 particularly when I hear the 1♠ response. The 3♦ rebid I am not sure if this is meant to be natural or a general force. What do I care? My next bid is 3♠. 4♦ from partner? Not sure if this is showing 5-5 or a cue, but I think it is showing some slam interest, so I will give a courtesy cue of 4♥. 4♠ from p? Shall I try 5♣? No I cant get the info I want with this bid. Slam looks at least 50% if partner has 2 key cards, so I wheel out RKC.

Quote "Also I play the 2N rebid as GF, which perhaps argues against upgrading too many 17 counts to fit the rebid (and even so can occasionally get you too high), but makes the subsequent continuations a bit easier."

I cant believe you are serious 1-eye. This would lead to 3NT contracts on mundane 23 points.

[1eyedjack]

Wackojack, on Nov 1 2008, 03:38 PM, said:

Quote "Also I play the 2N rebid as GF, which perhaps argues against upgrading too many 17 counts to fit the rebid (and even so can occasionally get you too high), but makes the subsequent continuations a bit easier."

I cant believe you are serious 1-eye. This would lead to 3NT contracts on mundane 23 points.

Umm - that's why I don't tend to upgrade 17 counts to fit the 2N rebid. At least, that's what I thought I said.

[ArtK78]

kenrexford, on Oct 31 2008, 10:36 PM, said:

A contract is not typically described as "cold" if you have a decision to make in trumps. With a diamond lead, you don't make the small slam if you decide to play spades for Kx-10xx.

I describe a contract as "cold" if it can be made without any help from the opposition.

Whether it is the "right" line of play or not is not relevant.

[blackshoe]

Lewis Carrol said:

"Words mean what I want them to mean," said Humpty Dumpty, "neither more nor less. It's a matter of who is to be master, that's all."

[1eyedjack]

I describe a contract as cold if it will be made on any reasonable line and on any opposing lie of the cards. I describe a contract as makeable if there is a line to make where alternatives fail. There is an implied criticism if someone goes down in a "cold" contract. None should accrue on this hand (given a diamond lead).

[FrancesHinden]

I am surprised at all the conventions everything thinks are being played here. The start to the auction is just how I would have bid it with my husband:

1C = natural (or balanced unable to open anything else), considered too good for a 15-17 1NT opening

1S = natural

2NT = 18-19 bal

3D = natural

3S = natural

OK, at this point I wouldn't bid 4D which sounds like a 5-5 (or 4-6) but 4D = cue bid is OK, as is 4H=cue bid.

The bidding got a bit over-enthusiastic after this, but no matter.

As others have said, you can play all sorts of system after a 2NT rebid (I admit I do too in some partnerships), but the basic approach of 3C = natural, 3D=natural, 3H=natural, 3S=natural,3NT=natural..... all works perfectly well. Calling a set of natural bids "strange and foreign" seems a bit of overkill.