[softcoder]

What is the consensus meaning for a jump in the fourth suit, when that suit is a minor;
weak? invitational?
Must the suit of the jump be 6 cards long or could you do it on five?
examples:
1) 1d-1h;1s-3c?
2) 1h-1s; 2c-3d?
3) 1c-1h;1s-3d?

Thanks,
softcode

[Cascade]

I have no idea what the consesus is but we play these as game forcing 5-5 hands.

[peachy]

I am not going to guess what consesus is playing various systems but in 2/1, 6m-4M weak. To play. Opener must not correct to the responder's major.

[mike777]

peachy, on Oct 19 2008, 12:32 AM, said:

I am not going to guess what consesus is playing various systems but in 2/1, 6m-4M weak. To play.  Opener must not correct to the responder's major.

Welcome to Walsh style.

If you hate Walsh np.
I think you need to play this as invite if you have no other way to show long minor(6-4), which I do not, and invite in Walsh.
On these auctions with 6-4 and weak, it is a problem with no good solution.

With 5-5 forcing I need to go through 4sf.
with 5-5 invite I may need to rebid 2nt on many hand types.

[Roupoil]

In France, it's 5-5 game forcing, usually with good suits.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 GF with 5-5 or inv. with 5-5, I prefer GF,
and I dont think 5-5 inv. is playable, but there
are good players, who think different
#2 (Not) playing Walsh would only have a influence
for your 3rd auction

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

GF 5-5 is the most common treatment I think. With Shogi I play it as a splinter.

[fromageGB]

Most of the people round here would say a splinter agreeing opener's second suit.

[blackshoe]

Hardy says it's weak canape in 2/1. Truscott ("The Bidding Dictionary") says there's no standard meaning. I agree with Truscott. And with Hardy, I suppose, but that doesn't make a consensus.

Edited to change "no consensus" to "no standard meaning", which is what Truscott actually says.

This post has been edited by blackshoe: 2008-October-19, 14:41

[Free]

5-5 GF is the most common agreement over here.

[kenrexford]

Cascade, on Oct 19 2008, 12:09 AM, said:

I have no idea what the consesus is but we play these as game forcing 5-5 hands.

Same.

[y66]

According to the current edition (2001) of The Official Encyclopedia of Bridge :

Quote

Jump rebid by responder - These are jump bids short of game by responder at his second turn. The meanings of such bids vary widely. In traditional Standard American all such jump bids were considered forcing, whether or not responder rebids his own suit, supports partner's suit or names a new suit. In the modern style, all such secondary jumps are non-forcing unless they are in a new suit. Some players treat some as forcing and some as non-forcing.

The standard meaning of 1C 1H : 1S 3D is forcing in either style.  Other possible agreements: 5-5 invitational; splinter; or mini-splinter

If there's a consensus, it's prolly that this is a good one for partnership discussion.

[mike777]

y66, on Oct 19 2008, 03:50 PM, said:

According to the current edition (2001) of The Official Encyclopedia of Bridge :

Quote

Jump rebid by responder - These are jump bids short of game by responder at his second turn. The meanings of such bids vary widely. In traditional Standard American all such jump bids were considered forcing, whether or not responder rebids his own suit, supports partner's suit or names a new suit. In the modern style, all such secondary jumps are non-forcing unless they are in a new suit. Some players treat some as forcing and some as non-forcing.

The standard meaning of 1C 1H : 1S 3D is forcing in either style.  Other possible agreements: 5-5 invitational; splinter; or mini-splinter

If there's a consensus, it's prolly that this is a good one for partnership discussion.

if you play walsh as game forcing style you need a way to show 6 minor-4major invite. IMO is more important to show invite hand and live with problem weak hand.

2/1 Walsh game forcing style means you cannot(very very often) bid one diamond with an an invite and a 4 card major hand over 1c and you cannot bid 2d over one heart with an invite hand and 4 spades.

As I mentioned above this means you may need to go through 4sf with 5-5 game force or rebid 2nt with 5-5 invite.

This hand type seems to be much more an issue in the forums than at the table.

[softcoder]

Thanks for all the replies.
No consensus seems to be the consensus

We play Walsh/Hardy style 2/1 where 4th suit is one round force INV or better but not always G/F.

The hands that generated the discussion:
x
AQxxx
AJ
KJxxx

vs

KT9xx
-----
QT8xxx
xx

Our auction: 1H-1S; 2C- 3D; ???
2C is non forcing but as it could be on a 3 card suit, and could have as many as 18HCP it is rarely passed.

softCode.

[mike777]

softcoder, on Oct 20 2008, 01:39 AM, said:

Thanks for all the replies.
No consensus seems to be the consensus

We play Walsh/Hardy style 2/1 where 4th suit is one round force INV or better but not always G/F.

The hands that generated the discussion:
x
AQxxx
AJ
KJxxx

vs

KT9xx
-----
QT8xxx
xx

Our auction: 1H-1S; 2C- 3D; ???
2C is non forcing but as it could be on a 3 card suit, and could have as many as 18HCP it is rarely passed.

softCode.

playing Walsh you need to slow down!



1h=1s
2c=2s

playing walsh you must accept diamond suit can be lost.....lost often!

you must accept should 3d be invite or 3d be weak.....what is more important!

keep in mind Walsh focus on majors..and then nt and then clubs and last ...diamonds.

[softcoder]

Walsh? Slow down?
That depends; Hardy in his books claims to follow Walsh. He says the 3D jump here is a weak 4-6. See p26 of Advanced Bidding for the 21st Century

Ex 23. 62 / Q974 / KJT862 / 5
He says that after 1C-1H;1NT Responder jumps to 3D.
Also after 1C-1H;1S jump to 3D, but you accept that you are taking the risk that there may be no fit.

In my example hand:
KT9xx
-----
QT8xxx
xx

after 1H-1S;2C I think the jump to 3D is better than to rebid 2S. (Assuming of course that pard understands this to be weak.)

Remember that Opener did not rebid 1NT so he is prob not balanced, and did not raise spades (as he would often do with 3 spades and a stiff diamond) so bidding 2S on a five bagger is not all that safe either, as Opener rates to have a stiff spade.
True, in the abstract his shortness (if he is 5431, 5521, or 5530) is more likely to be opposite your longest suit, but given the bidding you can pretty much discount him having 3 spades. So the choice is play 2S on the 5-1 or 3D on the 6-2.
As 2S sounds at least mildly invitational, and also tends to show a 6 card suit, (two lies) the better treatment, in my and Hardy's opinion, is to bid 3D. You might be in trouble but often not. As was the case on this hand, where in fact Opener did have 2 card support for diamonds, and did have in fact have a stiff spade.
Provided of course that your pard understands 3D to be a drop dead to play bid, and not some INV or G/F.

[peachy]

softcoder, on Nov 4 2008, 10:22 PM, said:

Walsh? Slow down?
That depends; Hardy in his books claims to follow Walsh. He says the 3D jump here is a weak 4-6. See p26 of Advanced Bidding for the 21st Century

Ex 23. 62 / Q974 / KJT862 / 5
He says that after 1C-1H;1NT Responder jumps to 3D.
Also after 1C-1H;1S jump to 3D, but you accept that you are taking the risk that there may be no fit.

In my example hand:
KT9xx
-----
QT8xxx
xx

after 1H-1S;2C I think the jump to 3D is better than to rebid 2S. (Assuming of course that pard understands this to be weak.)

Remember that Opener did not rebid 1NT so he is prob not balanced, and did not raise spades (as he would often do with 3 spades and a stiff diamond) so bidding 2S on a five bagger is not all that safe either, as Opener rates to have a stiff spade.
True, in the abstract his shortness (if he is 5431, 5521, or 5530) is more likely to be opposite your longest suit, but given the bidding you can pretty much discount him having 3 spades. So the choice is play 2S on the 5-1 or 3D on the 6-2.
As 2S sounds at least mildly invitational, and also tends to show a 6 card suit, (two lies) the better treatment, in my and Hardy's opinion, is to bid 3D. You might be in trouble but often not. As was the case on this hand, where in fact Opener did have 2 card support for diamonds, and did have in fact have a stiff spade.
Provided of course that your pard understands 3D to be a drop dead to play bid, and not some INV or G/F.

Your given hand K10xxx-v-Q108xxx-xx is not at all like the hand given in the Hardy example you quote and the auction is different as well.
- spades are five cards
- diamonds are just long, not good
- opener rebid 2C, not 1NT

Also 1H-1S-2C opener shows a 4-card club suit (not three) WITH a reason not to rebid 1NT.

[mike777]

"In my example hand:
KT9xx
-----
QT8xxx
xx

after 1H-1S;2C I think the jump to 3D is better than to rebid 2S. (Assuming of course that pard understands this to be weak.)"



this is a typical death hand in Walsh. Thank goodness I have never seen this at the table but only in bidding quizzes.

I rebid 3d.

1h=1s
2c=3d

one must just choose to live with this auction should it ever come up in real life.

with invite strength I got to bid 2nt very often.

[Dwingo]

If you play 4th suit as forcing to game, then this sequence is invitational as you have other ways of describing 5-5 GF hands.

If you play 4th suit as Invitational, then it makes sense to play these sequences as GF.

[Strangway]

On the auction 1h 1s 2c you would clearly show a 2 suiter by starting with 2d (4th suit forcing) and rebidding diamonds (assuming partner does not raise which is coneivable). (also assumes GF...though i think even with 1rnd force the sequence described would probably be forcing).

Since diamonds are shown with 4th suit and then a diamond bit...3d must be a splinter.

Walsh is a 1 lvl convention and has no reference to this sequence.