[jdonn]

xcurt, on Oct 11 2008, 09:39 PM, said:

jdonn, on Oct 10 2008, 11:02 AM, said:

xcurt, on Oct 9 2008, 11:20 PM, said:

Why is everyone hating the heart suit so much?  Which has a greater trick expectation integrated over partner's possible hands -- the hand we hold, or Axx, KJ976x, xx, Ax?

In hearts? THIS ONE! Meaning, your example suit.

Give partner ♥xx. Let's analyze a 4-1 break with ♥AQ offside (you can put the ♥T onside stiff if you like). The bad guys are going to make two trump tricks on power and probably will tap you out to make a long one. If the hearts split 3-2 with length over you, you need two honors tight onside to do better than I will with ace-empty-sixth.

Plus, having the ace is just huge on a hand like this since we can control the number of rounds of trumps taken out. Often that's worth at least one trick in the play.

You can go through a bunch of these analyses, or you can just consider that the longer the suit, the more the relative rank of the ace versus the king, and the less the relative value of the secondary honors and high spots versus the low spots.

I still like overcalling.

What the heck is the point of this? What if instead of offside they are....wait for it....onside! What if partner has Q or Qx or Qxx? Your last paragraph looks like it says "you can think, or you can live by cliches". I'll take the first option thanks!

[xcurt]

jdonn, on Oct 11 2008, 10:33 PM, said:

What the heck is the point of this? What if instead of offside they are....wait for it....onside! What if partner has Q or Qx or Qxx? Your last paragraph looks like it says "you can think, or you can live by cliches". I'll take the first option thanks!

The point is.....wait for it.....that you're maybe a fraction of a trick better, if at all. And you might be worse.

Here's another seeming paradox. It might be better to have ♥Axxxxx than ♥AJxxxx. Why? Because if the opponents have 5 hearts including the K, Q, J, and T, they're making the same number of heart tricks on play in spades as they are on defense against hearts.* If they are missing some of the interior spots, they might not be able to play the suit for tricks on play, but they'll make the same number of heart tricks on defense -- the number of trumps in their longer hand, less one. So you get better Law protection with the emptier suit, since it's less likely to be a Law failure hand.

I agree with other posters that passing could miss game. I don't agree with other posters that we're getting crushed as often as they think we are. So by arguments others made previously we should be in this auction.

And if you read anything else I posted, you know prefer what you called the "thinking" option.

* -- unless there is a cut or the defense can cut off the dummy against spades when the long heart is there

[whereagles]

I'll butt-in. The reason is pard, though short in spades, might also be short in hearts and might be stuck for a bid.

yeah, it's a bit sick. But I gotta do it.

[effervesce]

whereagles, on Oct 12 2008, 04:24 PM, said:

I'll butt-in. The reason is pard, though short in spades, might also be short in hearts and might be stuck for a bid.

yeah, it's a bit sick. But I gotta do it.

That's what I thought too. I really hated having to bid 3♥, but on the same reasoning I bid anyway. Partner responded 3NT, and we got smashed for 1100.

The whole hand:

Scoring: IMP

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Anyway-I'm passing these hands in the future (I know I know, what kind of Aussie player passes )

[han]

I conveniently waited until I knew the whole hand. I pass.

[nige1]

effervesce, on Oct 8 2008, 04:50 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

East opens 2♠, a 5 card 8-11HCP hand. Do you overcall 3♥ with

---

IMO 3♥ = 10, _P = 7.
I reckon that it pays to be conservative in 2nd seat.
But if you held ♠Axx ♥AK9xx ♦xxx ♣AT.
then you would probably risk a 2N or 3♥ overcall
And this hand has similar playing strength.

[pclayton]

Yawn, right again

[xcurt]

1100? What line did your partner take? Even if the opponents led clubs (best) it only looks like 500 to me.

Your partner's hand isn't much better than average for the auction and position. I'm not a big fan of the 3NT call. He played you for ♥AQJxxx, the ♦A, and some black stuff too. If you had a hand that wanted to catch a raise to 3NT on a random 9-count, you would have overcalled 2NT.

[effervesce]

xcurt, on Oct 12 2008, 09:44 PM, said:

1100? What line did your partner take? Even if the opponents led clubs (best) it only looks like 500 to me.

Your partner's hand isn't much better than average for the auction and position. I'm not a big fan of the 3NT call. He played you for ♥AQJxxx, the ♦A, and some black stuff too. If you had a hand that wanted to catch a raise to 3NT on a random 9-count, you would have overcalled 2NT.

He played for hearts 3-3 rather than playing on diamonds. He therefore lost 2 hearts, 4 clubs and 2 diamonds.

[xcurt]

effervesce, on Oct 12 2008, 10:04 PM, said:

xcurt, on Oct 12 2008, 09:44 PM, said:

1100?  What line did your partner take?  Even if the opponents led clubs (best) it only looks like 500 to me.

Your partner's hand isn't much better than average for the auction and position.  I'm not a big fan of the 3NT call.  He played you for ♥AQJxxx, the ♦A, and some black stuff too.  If you had a hand that wanted to catch a raise to 3NT on a random 9-count, you would have overcalled 2NT.

He played for hearts 3-3 rather than playing on diamonds. He therefore lost 2 hearts, 4 clubs and 2 diamonds.

Isn't there a commuications issue with this line? On a club lead you don't have the entries. On a high spade lead lead you have to unguard a black suit. On a heart lead you might be able to read the position.

[jdonn]

xcurt, on Oct 12 2008, 09:44 PM, said:

1100? What line did your partner take? Even if the opponents led clubs (best) it only looks like 500 to me.

Your partner's hand isn't much better than average for the auction and position. I'm not a big fan of the 3NT call. He played you for ♥AQJxxx, the ♦A, and some black stuff too. If you had a hand that wanted to catch a raise to 3NT on a random 9-count, you would have overcalled 2NT.

With 6 hearts?

[ArtK78]

xcurt, on Oct 12 2008, 09:44 PM, said:

1100? What line did your partner take? Even if the opponents led clubs (best) it only looks like 500 to me.

Your partner's hand isn't much better than average for the auction and position. I'm not a big fan of the 3NT call. He played you for ♥AQJxxx, the ♦A, and some black stuff too. If you had a hand that wanted to catch a raise to 3NT on a random 9-count, you would have overcalled 2NT.

IMO, he played you for a real 3♥ call. Passing over 3♥ is chicken bridge.

I saw someone do something a little more egregious the other night in a pair game at a local sectional. I opened 5♦ in first seat white against red and my LHO overcalled 5♥. My RHO passed holding AKQxx Jx Ax KJxx. Declarer could not quite handle the hand, and did lost a trick. 680 was not a great success for their side.

[xcurt]

ArtK78, on Oct 13 2008, 10:47 AM, said:

xcurt, on Oct 12 2008, 09:44 PM, said:

1100?  What line did your partner take?  Even if the opponents led clubs (best) it only looks like 500 to me.

Your partner's hand isn't much better than average for the auction and position.  I'm not a big fan of the 3NT call.  He played you for ♥AQJxxx, the ♦A, and some black stuff too.  If you had a hand that wanted to catch a raise to 3NT on a random 9-count, you would have overcalled 2NT.

IMO, he played you for a real 3♥ call. Passing over 3♥ is chicken bridge.

I saw someone do something a little more egregious the other night in a pair game at a local sectional. I opened 5♦ in first seat white against red and my LHO overcalled 5♥. My RHO passed holding AKQxx Jx Ax KJxx. Declarer could not quite handle the hand, and did lost a trick. 680 was not a great success for their side.

I know 3♥ here shows more playing strength than a minimum opener with a decent suit. But responder knows his side's fit is bad. Bidding 3NT, then, is betting on a make on power, which is equivalent to playing partner for something like 16++ here. Most of the time, partner's overcall will be near his minimum. I agree completely that passing because we don't have full limit values with at least three trumps is an error in these auctions -- but that applies when we're coming in partner's suit, which we aren't.

Now the guy that passed in your example, that's just sick. I would be worrying about missing grand.

[whereagles]

3♥ is very wide-ranging. We cannot really blame pard for bidding 3NT. He's as guilty as the frisky overcall.

I'd rank this one more like "preempts work" and "best defense vs prees: get lucky."

[benlessard]

Quote

3♥ is very wide-ranging. We cannot really blame pard for bidding 3NT. He's as guilty as the frisky overcall.

I'd rank this one more like "preempts work" and "best defense vs prees: get lucky."

OH boy i have to strongly disagree here. Its a risky overcall even at the 2 level, to make it at the 3 level is just plain ugly and wrong. As for 3NT is the only bid, passing is just inconceivable. 100% blame to the overcaller.