[Ant590]

Scoring: IMP

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North deals and bids 2♥ (5+♥s, 4+ minor, weak).
Do you agree with double from East, or would you make another action?

2♥ – dbl – 4♥ - 5♥
pass – ?

Do you agree with 5♥, and what would you do subsequently?

Thanks in advance
Ant.

[dake50]

Will they take an insurance sac over 6D? DK captured < 50% But add some tret for phantom 6H sac. I try it.

[655321]

Double by East is normal.

5♥ by West is very strange. West has a nothing-special 14HCP hand including the wasted ♥K, and his partner only made a takeout double of 2♥. What reason is there for going beyond game?

I would have bid 4♠ instead of 5♥. You could also make a case for double (takeout), because if East passes or bids 4♠ you are happy, and you can correct clubs to diamonds.

After 5♥ you will finish up in 6♦, needing the ♦K onside on a heart lead, but often making on a non-heart lead. The reason that 6♦ has play is because East's hand is much better than a minimum takeout double of 2♥.

[OleBerg]

Double is a wtp.
So is 6♦ over 5♥.

It is not obvious what the agreement about 5♥ is, but looking at the hand, it was probably meant to show a good raise in spades. The hand doesn't warrant that.

I prefer double of 4♥ to show excactly 4 spades, as we often have to double 2♥ on a three card-suit. And we are not eager to play our 4-3 fits after barrages.

(Ok, the double of 4♥ should show 4 spades initially, but hands with fewer spades and a plan, can double too.)

[Codo]

5 Heart is the only forward going bid avaiable.

All of you had bid 4 Spader with KQJxx,Kxx,xxx,xx an called it wtp.

So to make a slam try with a hand that needs just Kxx,xx,AKQx,xxx to make slam really really good is no big crime. Yes we all want to have an even stronger hand, but if we wait for that, we will wait forever.
When you look at your own hand, you "know" that North has Hearts and clubs. Pd made a t/O double and South raised hearts. You can see bd with a more or less pure 4144 hand. If his values are in diamonds and Spades (and this is what you expect) Slam is great. To bid a lame 4 Spade with such a hand will miss millions of slams.

Now, on the given hand they will reach 6 Diamonds, down one after a heart lead and the King of diamond with South. One down, good bridge.

[jdonn]

5♥ is definitely an overbid since the king of hearts is pretty much crap, but of course one that might work. I'm sure I would have bid (2♥) X (4♥) 4♠, which I say without any analysis of where I actually want to be on these hands.

[pclayton]

655321, on Oct 7 2008, 05:47 AM, said:

Double by East is normal.

5♥ by West is very strange. West has a nothing-special 14HCP hand including the wasted ♥K, and his partner only made a takeout double of 2♥. What reason is there for going beyond game?

I would have bid 4♠ instead of 5♥. You could also make a case for double (takeout), because if East passes or bids 4♠ you are happy, and you can correct clubs to diamonds.

After 5♥ you will finish up in 6♦, needing the ♦K onside on a heart lead, but often making on a non-heart lead. The reason that 6♦ has play is because East's hand is much better than a minimum takeout double of 2♥.

Agree with this. 5♥ is a serious overbid.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 the t/o by East is fine
#2 5H is ..., the player proved, why preempts are as effective as
they are, he tried not to get psyched out of slam, the results
being going down. (more or less coming straight from
"Why you loose at bridge")
He has working 12HCP, you can ignore the king, not complete
waste, but not full value, the t/o could have been made on a
min. opener, meaning 5H forces the partnership basically to the
6 level on a combined 24HCP count? Could be less, else you dont
make t/o double often enough.
#3 5NT, hoping, that partner interprets this, that he should bid his better
minor, could of course be also interpreted as a grand slam try .

With kind regards
Marlowe

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Oct 7 2008, 04:28 PM, said:

5♥ is definitely an overbid since the king of hearts is pretty much crap, but of course one that might work. I'm sure I would have bid (2♥) X (4♥) 4♠, which I say without any analysis of where I actually want to be on these hands.

5♥ is not that much of an overbid.

Partner's KQJ of clubs were waste paper, and 6D still had play.
Revamp partner's hand slightly, to

KJxx
-
AKxxx
Jxxx

and you want to be in grand, but he won't move over your 4S bid.

I think the odds are that we have two losers (the HA and a diamond trick) so driving slam is wrong, but it's not pointlessly wrong.

My thoughts:
- double of 2H is normal
- 5H is an overbid, but it's not insane. Personally I would double 4H because
i) if partner passes, we are definitly in the right spot
ii) if partner bids 4S I'm at least going to think of making a slam try (though I don't know if I'm going to yet)
iii) if partner bids 5C I shall convert to 5D
iv) if we just bid 4S it could be on all sorts of hands - partner is not really invited to move - we would bid here on Qxxxxx in spades and nothing else (well, I would). If I double I'm showing high card values and if partner has extras as well we'll reach our cold slams.

[benlessard]

5H is an overbid but i wont bid 4S for sure. At first i thought 4Nt and pull to 5D to suggest 6D but i think X is the best bid. If partner got a void in H 6 should be a nice spot and if hes got a stiff ill be happy in 4H X.


I agree with Frances post

[gwnn]

This will be a non-AE question, but what does 5♥ actually mean? In particular, what is the difference between 5NT and 5♥?

[sathyab]

FrancesHinden, on Oct 7 2008, 11:33 AM, said:

jdonn, on Oct 7 2008, 04:28 PM, said:

5♥ is definitely an overbid since the king of hearts is pretty much crap, but of course one that might work. I'm sure I would have bid (2♥) X (4♥) 4♠, which I say without any analysis of where I actually want to be on these hands.

- 5H is an overbid, but it's not insane. Personally I would double 4H because

ii) if partner bids 4S I'm at least going to think of making a slam try (though I don't know if I'm going to yet)

I have a few questions here:

What kind of hand would partner have, to bid 4s missing the AQT when you doubled 4h suggesting your preference to defend ?

If he did hold such a hand, why would he not bid more over your 4s ? Unless you're saying that the double of 4h suggested values while not denying a beefy spade holding such as AQTx, whereas a 4s bid could be made on a lot less.

[benlessard]

He will pull all hands with voids. He will also pull some hands with 1H/4S and extras values.

So he will pass with all hand with a stiff H and not 4S and pass 1H/4S and no extras.

[cherdano]

sathyab, on Oct 7 2008, 01:49 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Oct 7 2008, 11:33 AM, said:

jdonn, on Oct 7 2008, 04:28 PM, said:

5♥ is definitely an overbid since the king of hearts is pretty much crap, but of course one that might work. I'm sure I would have bid (2♥) X (4♥) 4♠, which I say without any analysis of where I actually want to be on these hands.

- 5H is an overbid, but it's not insane. Personally I would double 4H because

ii) if partner bids 4S I'm at least going to think of making a slam try (though I don't know if I'm going to yet)

I have a few questions here:

What kind of hand would partner have, to bid 4s missing the AQT when you doubled 4h suggesting your preference to defend ?

If he did hold such a hand, why would he not bid more over your 4s ? Unless you're saying that the double of 4h suggested values while not denying a beefy spade holding such as AQTx, whereas a 4s bid could be made on a lot less.

The double is responsive, not penalty. It has a higher minimum in high cards than 4S.

[sathyab]

cherdano, on Oct 7 2008, 02:55 PM, said:

sathyab, on Oct 7 2008, 01:49 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Oct 7 2008, 11:33 AM, said:

jdonn, on Oct 7 2008, 04:28 PM, said:

5♥ is definitely an overbid since the king of hearts is pretty much crap, but of course one that might work. I'm sure I would have bid (2♥) X (4♥) 4♠, which I say without any analysis of where I actually want to be on these hands.

- 5H is an overbid, but it's not insane. Personally I would double 4H because

ii) if partner bids 4S I'm at least going to think of making a slam try (though I don't know if I'm going to yet)

I have a few questions here:

What kind of hand would partner have, to bid 4s missing the AQT when you doubled 4h suggesting your preference to defend ?

If he did hold such a hand, why would he not bid more over your 4s ? Unless you're saying that the double of 4h suggested values while not denying a beefy spade holding such as AQTx, whereas a 4s bid could be made on a lot less.

The double is responsive, not penalty. It has a higher minimum in high cards than 4S.

You're right, the double is responsive; in fact I play it as responsive myself in this sequence, I misspoke when I said the double suggested penalty.

But when you have such a strong holding in spades, is partner expected to bid 4s on a holding such as Kxxx or even Kxxxx, knowing that a responsive double can be made on as little as xxx in spades if there're compensating values in minor suits. If you double on the actual hand, what happens if the opponents bid 5h ahead of your partner ?

[cherdano]

sathyab, on Oct 7 2008, 05:15 PM, said:

You're right, the double is responsive; in fact I play it as responsive myself in this sequence, I misspoke when I said the double suggested penalty.

But when you have such a strong holding in spades, is partner expected to bid 4s on a holding such as Kxxx or even Kxxxx, knowing that a responsive double can be made on as little as xxx in spades if there're compensating values in minor suits. If you double on the actual hand, what happens if the opponents bid 5h ahead of your partner ?

If takeout doubler has 4144 with Kxxx of spades, I would expect him to bid 4♠ over a responsive double. His partner will never play him for more than 4 spades.
With ♥KTx I am not particularly worried about opponents bidding 5♥, I am happy to double them again a level higher...