[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

after reading the article, I change my mind,
mainly because of #2.

I also think, that the $2.7 mio punitive damage reward
was more intended as a punishment for McDonalds than
as a gift for the injured woman.
Maybe the the jury should have said, that McDonalds should
give most of the money to an organisation fighting for product
safety.
But I dont think this would have been an otoion, or nobody
thought about this.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mikeh]

P_Marlowe, on Oct 6 2008, 10:20 AM, said:

Hi,

after reading the article, I change my mind,
mainly because of #2.

I also think, that the $2.7 mio punitive damage reward
was more intended as a punishment for McDonalds than
as a gift for the injured woman.
Maybe the the jury should have said, that McDonalds should
give most of the money to an organisation fighting for product
safety.
But I dont think this would have been an otoion, or nobody
thought about this.

With kind regards
Marlowe

You are absolutely right: punitive damages are NOT intended to be compensatory of the victim. Yes, it might be a nice idea if the money, sort of a fine, could go elsewhere, but that's not the way the system is designed.

I think a lot of people might have felt more comfortable if the result had been compensatory damages plus a fine for outrageous conduct, with the fine going to some entity other than the plaintiff and her lawyers. OTOH, the lawyer did a good job, not only for his client but also for all of the other victims who would have been injured were McDonalds to continue their practices (and I don't know if they ever changed.. since I don't frequent McDonalds)

[pclayton]

A lot of McDonalds' problems in the coffee case were self-inflicted. Failing to settle early was idiotic. Failure to address complaints of 700 consumers (probably 10x people were actually harmed, but not everyone bothers to write a letter). So this 'sticks' to them.

Still, you order a cup of coffee. If I held a cup of hot liquid that was 180 degrees, you can make damn sure that my hand would be screaming and I would take great care. This is how a Starbucks cup is until you put one of those little insulators on it.

If I'm in a car, I would use something called a cupholder. I wouldn't be adding condiments while this cauldron was sitting between my legs. This is no brighter than trimming a hedge with a lawnmower.

When I was 21, I actually was scalded by coffee. I was watching TV in a supine position and had a mug perched on my abdomen. Something caused me to laugh which spilled a little which caused me to sit up which spilled the contents.

I had a 2" x 6" blister for about two weeks.

Quote

Imagine a hotel that delivered pure hot water from its showers at 180 degrees... and told you, after you were burned, that 'of course the hot water is hot, you idiot'.

LOL who stands in a shower and turns the water on? Usually its too cold coming out of the spigot. When I do that my little men run for a warmer climate.

[matmat]

mikeh, on Oct 6 2008, 09:56 AM, said:

Imagine a hotel that delivered pure hot water from its showers at 180 degrees... and told you, after you were burned, that 'of course the hot water is hot, you idiot'.

well, common sense dictates that when you get a hot shower running you test the water before you hop into it, *especially* if it is a shower of unknown quality.

similarly, if you are going to go diving off a peer, even if there is no "no diving sign," common sense should lead you to make sure the water is deep enough for you to not break your neck.


as for the OP, it's a nice idea, I am not sure it is original, and it could have been written better.

[matmat]

pclayton, on Oct 6 2008, 11:18 AM, said:

If I'm in a car, I would use something called a cupholder. I wouldn't be adding condiments while this cauldron was sitting between my legs. This is no brighter than trimming a hedge with a lawnmower.

hey!
what's wrong with using a lawnmower to trim a hedge?!

but seriously...
I think people (and from what i have seen this is more the case in the US than in Europe, for some reason) have been getting increasingly more lazy in regard to thinking, they try to avoid it at all cost.

for the moment, let's suppose that the coffee was the prescribed 155F, or whatever the "safe" temperature is and revisit the cup situation...

1. Styrofoam is soft, if i squeeze it I may break it or I might push the drink through the top
2. If I put the coffee between my thighs to hold it, I don't have a very stable platform with which to work, and I don't have great control of the strength with which I am holding it.
3. if the coffee spills, it will stain my clothing, coffee stains can be hard to remove, especially from the car-seat.
4. if it spills, it will still hurt a little bit, even at "okay" temperature the feeling will still be unpleasant.

is this progression insufficient for you to not want to be extra careful and resourceful in stirring in your cream and sugar into the coffee?

[DrTodd13]

Did you hear about the 90 year old woman who police came to evict her from her house as she had defaulted on her mortgage? She shot herself twice in the arms. What did Fannie Mae decide to do then? Why, forgive her her debt and let her keep her house. Hello?!?!?!? It doesn't take a genius to realize now there is going to be a string of people shooting themselves when they default on their mortgages.

[matmat]

DrTodd13, on Oct 6 2008, 11:32 AM, said:

Did you hear about the 90 year old woman who police came to evict her from her house as she had defaulted on her mortgage?  She shot herself twice in the arms.  What did Fannie Mae decide to do then?  Why, forgive her her debt and let her keep her house.  Hello?!?!?!?  It doesn't take a genius to realize now there is going to be a string of people shooting themselves when they default on their mortgages.

i was just about to post this here.

poor woman, but the reaction by the FM and the way the media lurched onto it is ridiculous. I am expecting a rash of shootings now...

[kenberg]

helene_t, on Oct 6 2008, 09:29 AM, said:

kenberg, on Oct 6 2008, 02:55 PM, said:

I do think that my high school days (1952-1956) used greater common sense in this regard. Some students took algebra, some didn't, they were all taught something useful.

Problem is, the amount of jobs that don't require difficult hi-school subjects like algebra and haven't been automated or outsourced is much smaller today than it was in 52-56. This is especially clear in countries with small languages like Scandinavia and the Netherlands - most jobs require proficiency in English.

So people keep telling me. It's true that my pinsetting job in a bowling alley no longer exists but it would be interesting to stand on a street corner and ask the first hundred people that walk by when it was that they last used an x. I suppose it would depend on the street corner.

On my older daughter's fortieth birthday I asked her if she remembered the quadratic formula. "Something about a, b and c and there is a square root somewhere". I think she even said something about the plus or minus sign. I didn't even attempt this with my younger daughter on her fortieth. This showed, to address the main topic, common sense. She would probably have poured hot coffee on me. Well, maybe not. Best not to find out.


Common sense suggests that I stop with this post. I have some work that needs doing.

Don't get me wrong, I do recommend that kids learn all the math that they can handle. It significantly expands their choices for a career. In talking to students I often explain that the advice I am giving them is the same advice I gave to my own kids. I just don't think that mandating that everyone will learn algebra will be more successful than mandating that it will not rain on the Fourth of July.

[ASkolnick]

Silly argument about extra "hot". How does one make coffee? Oh, I know, by boiling water. Didn't they use boiling water/oil as weapons in medieval times to stop intruders. Why? because it hurts. Probably not something you want spilled on you even at 155 degrees or put between your legs.

As for the shower, as stated, I test it first.
I would not stick my hand in a Lion's mouth, even if his teeth weren't as sharp as the alligators.
I would not fold my exersaucer with a child inside, even if there was no label.
I am not planning on jumping off a building even if it is only two stories high and I might make it.

Do you know why? Because this is what the article means about Common Sense.

As for the when you last used an X, it is interesting how the world has changed. I keep thinking to myself how my 1st grade son is now going to do book reports versus the way we did them. I still find it odd that the classroom is in clusters of desks instead of rows.

I think algebra is used more often then you think, people don't call it algebra.
Algebra really starts in about 1st grade when you have the "Fill in the Box problems"
_
3 + |_| = 7 is no different then 3 + X = 7. Solve for X.

Also, how much do I need to charge for a widget to break even producing 1,000 widgets and covering costs of $7,000? Sure, you may not think its algebra, you may use a calculator, Excel spreadsheet or whatever device, but it still is using algebra.

and those who want to know (and I'm sure people do)

(-B +- SQRT(B^2-4ac))/2a

and no, I don't use it at work.

[EricK]

ASkolnick, on Oct 6 2008, 07:46 PM, said:

As for the shower, as stated, I test it first.

How exactly would you test it? Most people, I imagine, would stick their hand in, little imagining that the water would be coming out at 180 degrees. And so they would get burnt anyway.

[kenberg]

ASkolnick, on Oct 6 2008, 02:46 PM, said:

As for the when you last used an X, it is interesting how the world has changed.  I keep thinking to myself how my 1st grade son is now going to do book reports versus the way we did them.  I still find it odd that the classroom is in clusters of desks instead of rows.

I think algebra is used more often then you think, people don't call it algebra.
Algebra really starts in about 1st grade when you have the "Fill in the Box problems"
      _
3 + |_| =  7 is no different then  3 + X = 7. Solve for X.

Also, how much do I need to charge for a widget to break even producing 1,000 widgets and covering costs of $7,000?  Sure, you may not think its algebra, you may use a calculator, Excel spreadsheet or whatever device, but it still is using algebra.

and those who want to know (and I'm sure people do)

(-B +- SQRT(B^2-4ac))/2a

and no, I don't use it at work.

That's how they get to call it an algebra exam alright. Actually even the MD exam gets a little more substantial than that. Here is a problem (roughly stated, I haven't looked it up): Suzy rents time at a swimming pool. They charge her $15 a month flat fee plus 50 cents an hour for swimming (yeah, she should join the Y, but this is the problem). One month her bill was $35. How many hours did she swim? I believe that the entire world, including algebra teachers, would solve this by observing that the hourly fees come to 35-15=20 dollars, and Suzy gets 2 hours for every buck so she swam 40 hours. Sure, you can set this up as 15+0.5*x=35 and solve for x, but who would? It's a decent problem and students should be able to work this problem fairly early in life, but algebra it is not.

A number of the problems are fairly decent. Here is another, again in roughly correct form: Suzy averages 7 baskets a game during her first five basketball games. How many baskets must she get in her sixth game in order to bring her average up to 8 baskets per game? This is a nice sensible arithmetic problem for the sixth grade or so. It's not algebra.

The kids in the good schools have no problems with this. My granddaughter, who has very little interest in math or science, passed the exam in the seventh grade as did all of her friends. At the hs she now attends you could probably count the students on one hand who come in w/o having passed it. It's in the weaker schools that things go haywire. The kids are all, regardless of whether they can add fractions, dumped into a class called algebra. The teacher is supposed to teach algebra and s/he is supposed to get the kids through the exam. Common sense will tell you what happens. They concentrate on getting the kids ready, as ready as they can, for the exam. Algebra can be learned some other time and place. Except they now have credit for Algebra I so they are put in Algebra II.

The problems, many of them, on the exam are reasonable tests of mathematical reasoning. They just aren't algebra problems. It's considered important that all students learn algebra, so these problem get baptized as algebra problems. In partial recognition of the lack of algebra they have renamed the exam Algebra and Data Analysis. This means that where I used the word "average" in the basketball problem, the exam instead uses the word "mean". Presto changeo, a data analysis problem.

I'm working on breaking the four minute mile (I know, Roger Banister beat me to it, but I will be the first in to do it in the Senior category). I'm renaming blocks and calling them miles.

By the way, you may think I am joking about putting these students into Algebra II. I am not. My wife agreed to take over a day of tutoring for a friend since he wanted to play golf. The student was doing advanced work, studying the Sine Law. For those who have forgotten, imagine that there are two observation stations at known locations. Each can spot an event off in the distance and measure the direction toward the event but not the distance. You could put it on graph paper and draw the lines to find the location. The Sine Law allows you to do this with trigonometric calculations, skipping the graph paper. Well, providing you can calculate that is. The student knew that three somethings of a triangle add to 180 but wasn't sure if it was the sides or the angles. It didn't really matter since adding two numbers together and subtracting the total from 180 was beyond his skills. This is what comes from pretending students have learned something when they haven't. By the way, the student had gotten a good score on the homework he had handed in. Every problem had been done. They were all wrong, but they were all done.

[blackshoe]

Well, he did the homework. If you give him a bad grade because he got them all wrong, his self-esteem will be destroyed, he will refuse to do the next assignment, and he will probably become a drug dealer within the week.

[sceptic]

Having brought coffee from McD's on many occasions, Would the steam coming out the top of the cup (which I can assure you it does) not put the blame on the moron sticking it between her legs?

[sceptic]

Quote

we would be shooting (clubbing?) suspected burglars to death

I fail to see a problem here, anyone that breaks in a robs someones home, deserves everything they get.

[kenberg]

sceptic, on Oct 7 2008, 12:53 AM, said:

Quote

we would be shooting (clubbing?) suspected burglars to death

I fail to see a problem here, anyone that breaks in a robs someones home, deserves everything they get.

That's a little tough for me. I don't sit around worrying about the fate of criminals but I do favor some restraint. I appreciate the mercy that has been shown to me on occasion.

[ASkolnick]

Quote

hat's how they get to call it an algebra exam alright. Actually even the MD exam gets a little more substantial than that. Here is a problem (roughly stated, I haven't looked it up): Suzy rents time at a swimming pool. They charge her $15 a month flat fee plus 50 cents an hour for swimming (yeah, she should join the Y, but this is the problem). One month her bill was $35. How many hours did she swim? I believe that the entire world, including algebra teachers, would solve this by observing that the hourly fees come to 35-15=20 dollars, and Suzy gets 2 hours for every buck so she swam 40 hours. Sure, you can set this up as 15+0.5*x=35 and solve for x, but who would? It's a decent problem and students should be able to work this problem fairly early in life, but algebra it is not.

I was once a high school math teacher about 5 years ago and when you make a statement like above saying you did not solve for X, I would say "But you just did solve for that equation for X, and here is how. You did the same thing to each side of the equation. Let's go through this step-by-step"

15+.5X=35

"You said we need to figure out just the hourly rate? How did you get to your $20"
"I took the $15 away from the $35"
"Where did you get the $15 from?" (S)he can show me.

-15(15)+.5X = 35-15
.5X = 20

1 hour is .50 Cents, how many hours do you get for a whole buck? 2 hours. How did you figure out 40 hours then. Multiplied 2*20=40.

2(.5X)=2(20)
X=40.
or simply

15+.5X= 35
-15 -15 Hourly Rate was 20 bucks (35-15)
.5X=20 Half buck 1 hour, 1 buck, 2 hours
2(.5X)=20*2
X=40


And you are wrong, this is exactly what algebra is. If anything, it is a much more practical application of algebra then just writing down formulas.

For Calculus, it was much more interesting with word problems minimizing surface area and maximizing volume.

For Differential Equations, it was much more interesting when we could figure out the time of the murder based on when the body gets cold.

So, does this mean if you put a practical use to develop an equation, it now loses what it is s called. I think not. Now, you should also explain that things may not be word problems, but if needed to you could always convert an equation to a word problem to make it more practical.



How does one solve for it? I can think of two methods off-hand:
Gaussian Elminination or substitution. Is either right? No, just different methods of solving the same equation and yes they are both algebra. So the method of solving for X does not determine if its algebra.

However, I am a believer in not "dumbing" down tests or into social promotion at all. But I do believe you can take more than one approach to any problem.

[kenberg]

When I say that it is not algebra I mean, roughly speaking, that my father who finished school in eighth grade could have solved both of these problems. I regard these problems as good preparation for a course in Algebra. In Algebra, as I use the term and I believe most mathematicians would use the term, there is some symbolic manipulation beyond the manipulation of arithmetic symbols. The logical basis for the symbolic manipulations is rooted in the logic of these simple problems but the use of variables, with known or unknown values, provides greater power.

But we could argue about whether or not I am using the word algebra with its proper meaning for a long time and probably not come to an agreement. I claim that learning how to work out the number of hours Suzy spent in the pool in the straightforward manner I described is good preparation for Algebra I. I gather you think that this is the content of Algebra I. My Algebra I, in 1952, was more substantial than that. The Algebra Exam as originally conceived in Maryland was also more substantial. I, with others, reviewed the problems and I can tell you that there were word problems that involved two linear equations in two unknowns, and these problems could not readily be solved unless the student could use algebra in the sense that I, and I really think most others, use the word. I wondered at the time if it was realistic to think that teachers could bring all students to that level, but idealism prevailed for a while. Then reality set in, and the exam became easier. Much easier.


Whatever you think Algebra I should be, I can tell you that there were high school teachers working on the original formulation who thought that it included setting up and solving two linear equations in two unknowns as well as other problems at that level. My 1952 Algebra teacher, Mrs. Swan, thought so as well. This view has not prevailed. A pity, I think.

[mycroft]

So, what you're telling me is that "My food comes, with tax, to $7.78. I give the cashier $8.03. How much change do I get, and why did I do that?" isn't mathematics (straight subtraction) or algebra (because you or I wouldn't write it down and "solve for X"). That's because you and I, and everyone with basic, life math skills, have internalized the algebra (as ASkolnik says). If you don't drill the basics into people - and then show them that yes, what they were doing was algebra, here's the formal way to do what you did in your head - they look at all these weird numbers and letters and rules and throw their hands up and collapse. And if you don't bridge into things you can't really do in your head - like simultaneous equations in three variables - with the stuff you can watch happen, and then stuff like "Ty Cobb has a .420 average after the last game of the season, Nap Lajoie has a .402 with two games to play. He has 438 at-bats. If he hits every time he's up, how many at-bats does he need to take the batting title?" (How can you tell I've been on a historical trip through baseball recently?) the student is going to be blown away by multivariate simultaneous equations, or trigonometric identities (which yeah, you don't need in real life, unless you go on to do calculus), or whatever.

But "that's not algebra" leads to the cashier looking at my $8.03, giving me the three pennies back, then punching in $8.00 into the machine and giving me another $0.22.
It is algebra, and he could have handled *that* in school, so felt comfortable he knew how to solve 778 + X = 803, so he should be able to either translate 2x + 45 = 0 (or y = 2x + 45 for a graph, or x= (-b +/- sqrt( b^2 -4ac))/2a for that matter, or even Math Fail.

[mycroft]

And there's a difference between your "Algebra I" (my Math 10), and grade 6 Algebra (which is where you get introduced to x as a term instead of 4 + __ = 7). Really, really, there are those who have never made that connection, and they aren't going to pass grade 10 math no matter how you dumb it down.

And I used a poisson distribution in my (admittedly very high-level and random) tech support job just yesterday.

[kenberg]

If you guys want to call it algebra, go ahead. But I trust that you do not think that being able to make change for $8.03 when the bill is $2.78 is adequate preparation for an Algebra II course. I would say that preparation for Algebra II consists of the sort of things that I have been saying belong in Algebra I. If we agree on that, I won't hassle you about whether or not someone is doing algebra when making change. I call it arithmetic, but hey, you say banana, I say bahnahnna.