[kenberg]

Scoring: IMP

---

The opps are silent. Anyone want to suggest where this should be played and how we should get there? We played in 3D by South, making on dumb luck and a little help from my friends the opponents.


Our auction (with the opponents' passes omitted):
1C 1S
2C 2D
2H 2S
3D pass

I was S and I felt the hand too good to pass 2C. My partner expects 2D to show diamonds or he at least hopes that it does.

[EricK]

I'd probably get to 2♠ - which is no thing of beauty. After either
1C 1S
2C 2S

or

1C 1S
2C 2D
2H 2S

[jdonn]

kenberg, on Sep 28 2008, 09:07 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

The opps are silent. Anyone want to suggest where this should be played and how we should get there? We played in 3D by South, making on dumb luck and a little help from my friends the opponents.


Our auction (with the opponents' passes omitted):
1C 1S
2C 2D
2H 2S
3D pass

I was S and I felt the hand too good to pass 2C. My partner expects 2D to show diamonds or he at least hopes that it does.

Your auction was fine for a while, but north has to pass 2♠. Get out asap on a misfit, especially with a weak hand!

[pclayton]

jdonn, on Sep 28 2008, 09:11 AM, said:

Your auction was fine for a while, but north has to pass 2♠. Get out asap on a misfit, especially with a weak hand!

Didn't we just go over whether or not bids like 2♠ are forcing? Wouldn't we bid the same with AQJxxx x AKxx Q?

I like a simple 2♠ over 2♣, but I'm probably influenced by the whole hand.

[kenberg]

I was indeed wondering if my 2S was passable. I missed the thread if this has been discussed recently. Too busy arguing politics on the WC. Gotta get focused.

I considered 2S directly over 2C but I thought my hand was maybe a bit strong for it. With six spades and six points surely I would pass 2C but it seems I might bid 2S with fewer points, but a better suit, than I have here.

As you can tell from this we lack detailed agreements, trusting to bridge logic to sort things out. But of course that only goes so far.

[SlickRicky]

Hi,

In my opinion 2S and 2N are NF, and 3 level bids are forcing. This is also consistent with new minor forcing, where 2 level bids by responder are NF (not that it need be consistent, just that the same logic applies).

Ricky

[mike777]

kenberg, on Sep 28 2008, 09:07 AM, said:

<!-- NORTHSOUTH begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> West </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> None </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td>  </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> AQJ4 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> T96 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> KT9542 </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> AQ8632 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> 83 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> K732 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> Q </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- NORTHSOUTH end -->

The opps are silent. Anyone want to suggest where this should be played and how we should get there? We played in 3D by South, making on dumb luck and a little help from my friends the opponents.


Our auction (with the opponents' passes omitted):
1C  1S
2C  2D
2H   2S
3D   pass

I was S and I felt the hand too good to pass 2C. My partner expects 2D to show diamonds or he at least hopes that it does.

I would have gotten stuck in 3s

1c=1s
2c=3s(good invite)
but I understand just rebidding 2s and then opener passing.

btw I would think 2d would create a game force? Did not MikeH just discuss this auction last week?
one club=one major
two clubs=2 diamonds!

As in many types of auctions using 2d for something not promising D's?

[kenberg]

I think there are various agreements that you could have. I have played where the 2D is nmf, saying nothing about Ds. In that case, among other things, I could be holding four hearts. 1C-1S-2C-2H is weak and passable when playing that way. We were not playing that way. If my diamonds were hearts I could have bid them, forcing. If I have a spade heart hand and I want to get out in 2H, it's just too bad, I can't. I see the merits of the 2H passable approach but, as we were playing, 2D shows Ds, 2Hs shows Hs, both forcing. I think that 2D followed by 2S is stronger than just rebidding 2S (sort of on the general principle that when you take three bids rather than two you should have something) but I am sure partner did not think that 2D then 2S was game forcing. He may well have thought it was forcing. Guess I should ask him.

Mostly this hand is probably a testament to the importance of being on the same wavelength. And being lucky. I got a spade lead.

[P_Marlowe]

kenberg, on Sep 28 2008, 09:07 AM, said:

Dealer: West Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠   ♥ AQJ4 ♦ T96 ♣ KT9542 ♠ AQ8632 ♥ 83 ♦ K732 ♣ Q

The opps are silent. Anyone want to suggest where this should be played and how we should get there? We played in 3D by South, making on dumb luck and a little help from my friends the opponents.


Our auction (with the opponents' passes omitted):
1C  1S
2C  2D
2H  2S
3D  pass

I was S and I felt the hand too good to pass 2C. My partner expects 2D to show diamonds or he at least hopes that it does.

Hi,

if you partner assumes 2D as nat.,
I would assume 2H as FSF, hence
2H it aint.

I would not pass 2C, it is either 2S
or 3S, I guess I would go with 3S.

Not the place I wanr to be, but better
than 3D for sure.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: If 2D was 3rd suit forcing, 2S in the given
auction is forcing, more precise it is game forcing.

[kenberg]

I didn't take 2H to show four hearts. I did take it to be some heart values. After his 2C bid limiting his hand, I think his next bid needs to show what he has rather than ask what I have. So not fsf.

As jdonn remarked a few posts back, so far so good (I paraphrase).

[mike777]

kenberg, on Sep 28 2008, 04:45 PM, said:

I didn't take 2H to show four hearts. I did take it to be some heart values. After his 2C bid limiting his hand, I think his next bid needs to show what he has rather than ask what I have. So not fsf.

As jdonn remarked a few posts back, so far so good (I paraphrase).

Given I play 2d as game force no matter but even if not, I think you got to play 2h over 2d now as game force. As some point you need to be able to show max hands.

Reverse flannery takes out the weakish 5s and 4h hands.

[kenberg]

We seem to have a range of opinion form N should have passed 2S to 2D is game forcing.

So, whatever is best, it seems like it is a point to discuss with our partners. The one thing I do feel strongly about is that after the limiting bid of 2C, partner can no longer create a game force with 2H. That seems clear to me but I'll listen.

[mike777]

Ken my point I was trying to make is if 2d is not 100% game force it must be one round forcing and showing either almost or game going hand.

Opener must have some way to show more than a minimum that accepts an almost game force 2d bid here. It seems 2h must therefore accept the almost game force hand.

"I think that 2D followed by 2S is stronger than just rebidding 2S (sort of on the general principle that when you take three bids rather than two you should have something) but I am sure"

I think you posted that 2d is not 100% game force but in your style it did show extras. 2H must accept that hand I would assume. A 2c rebid can be pretty wide ranging given you open ten hcp hands.

I do not play 2d as this style but it seems to be logical given your style.

[mike777]

As a side note if you choose to play 1c=1major=2c=2d as game force, that forces me to play in my style: 1c=1major=2c=3d as invite...6d and 4 major, game try.

Hands with 4 major and 6D and less than invite become the problem hand you must live with. You either pass 2c or rebid 3d and hope partner passes.

[P_Marlowe]

kenberg, on Sep 28 2008, 09:29 PM, said:

We seem to have a range of opinion form N should have passed 2S to 2D is game forcing.

So, whatever is best, it seems like it is a point to discuss with our partners. The one thing I do feel strongly about is that after the limiting bid of 2C, partner can no longer create a game force with 2H. That seems clear to me but I'll listen.

Just one comment:

Just because opener has limited itself, does not
mean he cant force to game, after p showed
10-11, he may well have 14-15/16, depending
your requirements for a jump rebid, but I doubt
you require opener to jump to 3C with 14-15HCP
and a medium 6 card suit, and playing American
Standard, there may even be hands with 16HCP,
which just bid 2C in the first place.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Codo]

Everybody seems to open the north hand. In standard systems would simply pass with 10 HCPs, a crapy main suit and no spades.

After this start, that the bidding isn`t too difficult: pass pass pass 2 Spade - all pass.

Playing Precision or polish club, this is a 2 Club opening. Pd bids 2 Spade, invitational. With such a horrible misfit, north easily passes.

[kenberg]

I was thinking of asking a precision player how the auction would go. I assumed 2C-2S all pass would do it but I am not all that familiar with the sequences.

I see the point of Marlowe and Mike: 2D at least shows something, and 2H is a statement that if you have something then fine, I have enough to play game. Obviously my partner was not taking that approach. When it came time to call over 3D, I wondered a bit whether partner thought of his call as passable but I figured this was all not going very well and I was passing whether or not I was allowed to. It's true that the 2C could be on a pretty decent hand so I was a bit worried I amy be making a mistake.


As to the 1C opening, I figured that's partner's business. People are opening lighter and lighter these days. Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. I guess it satisfies the rule of twenty but I'm not big on such rules.

Anyway, I thank all contributors. I suspect this has pretty much run its course.