[Califdude]

Playing SAYC, is there any bid other than a takeout double to indicate a very strong one-suited hand in the overcall position?

We were vulnerable. Bidding went 1C-1D-Pass-Pass and partner played a cold 6D, not even a finesse. He had 7 diamonds to AK, singleton and doubleton Aces in the majors , KQx in clubs. I had QJ10 diamonds and both major suit kings for 9 points in a square hand and saw nothing forcing and no reason to bid.

Would you say pard should have bid a takeout double, which could mislead me about his support for majors? Was there any other bid available to show his strength?

Would you say I should have bid 2D, if so why?

Thanks for your replies.

[rogerclee]

So partner had:

♠Ax ♥A ♦AKxxxxx ♣KQx

and you had:

♠Kxx ♥Kxx ♦QJT ♣xxxx (or something that looks like this)

There is no consensus even among very good players as to what a "minimum" double in this position looks like, and there are a lot of factors to consider. How strong it is, how self-sufficient the suit is, how flexible the hand is for possibly declaring in another strain, and even the number of spades in the hand are all major factors. Still, your partner's hand, a very prime 20-count, is far too good to overcall 1♦. This hand is above and beyond any reasonable expert's standard for making a simple overcall. In fact, I think this hand is so strong that I would double and then cuebid to suggest a total powerhouse, then bid diamonds.

However, you also have a very clear 2♦ raise. Raising partner with support when you have any reason to, is in general, winning bridge. Lots of good things can happen from raising partner. Perhaps partner's hand is far more mundane: Ax AJx Axxxxx Kx. This is a very normal 1♦ overcall (ok maybe I would overcall 1N), yet missing this 3NT (or the worse but still good 5♦ contract) is a total disaster. It cannot be emphasized how important bidding and making game is.

But what if you can't make game? Other good things can happen from raising. You preempt the auction slightly for your opponents, making it harder for them to exchange information while exchanging more information with your partner. You make it possible for partner to bid intelligently later, knowing that if you later bid diamonds, you probably have a very bad hand. Or maybe you pass and the auction comes back to you at 2♠. Don't you wish you had shown your diamond support earlier, rather than be forced to bid 3♦ now?

You are very unlikely to buy the contract in 1♦ anyway, and even if you do, this hand is good enough to assume that either:

1) You can make 2♦ or more.
2) The opponents are about to bid more, and you should have preempted them with a 2♦ call.

[skjaeran]

A Ax AKxxxxx KQx is far too strong for a simple overcall even for me. You've got to double with this hand and bid diamonds later, to show a very strong hand with diamonds.

When that is said, you can't pass partner's 1♦ overcall with a hand like Kxx Kxx QJT xxxx - you've got too much, and game is more than just a possibility. I'd probably cuebid 2♣ to show a good raise to 2♦, for some this hand doesn't qualify for that. So you could raise to 2♦ or bid 1NT (yes, you lack a club stopper, but that's not such a great issue).

[cherdano]

Yes you should have raised. QJT is nice support that you should show before it is too late - partner might prefer playing 3D to defending 2M, for example.
I would double with partner's hand (and think it's pretty clear). When he freely bids diamonds over that, it cancels the promise of support for the majors. (Double-then-bid-new-suit = strong hand) With great 20 points and great shape, partner certainly had enough to do so.

[Gerben42]

Quote

♠Ax ♥A ♦AKxxxxx ♣KQx

This is surely worth a Dbl rather than an overcall, as you have only 3 losers (♣, ♦, ♠). Partner may well pass a hand like ♠xxx ♥xxx ♦Jxx ♣Axxx and slam would be the best contract.

Quote

♠Kxx ♥Kxx ♦QJT ♣xxxx

This hand is too strong too pass. Even if your partner likes light overcalls, I would not pass any hand with 3-card support and 8 or more support points (here you have 9).

Now it is an interesting problem what you should bid after 1♣ - Dbl - Pass. Probably 1NT. In this case, partner can now bid 2♦ forcing, which you can support with 3♦.

Reaching a slam is not clear at all, though...

[ochinko]

The upper limit for a direct overcall at level one is about 16 HCP. Even if you replace an Ace with a small card 1♦ overcall doesn't show the ♦ length and how rich in controls your partner's hand is. And if your jump overcalls are weak then even with 16 pts any ♦ overcall fails to show the goods.

My plan with the strong hand would be to start with a double, go through a cue bid, then bid my ♦, otherwise I'll look like 17-18 with 6♦. It would be worse to jump in ♦ after 1♥/♠ because it could look like splinter or fit jump. If instead partner bids 1NT after my double I'll try 4♦ as ♣ would look like Stayman. 4♦ should be natural and slam oriented as there would be no point in transferring ♥ to the weaker hand.

So, to sum it up assuming opps don't bid anymore:

Dbl - 1♥/♠
2♣ - 2something
3♦

or

Dbl - 1NT
4♦

[helene_t]

Although I "never" make a t/o double with a singleton in an unbid major, I might do it with this hand.

There is another bid p can use with a very strong single suiter: 3♣, the jump cuebid. It shows a solid minor suit (when opps open a minor: the other minor) and stoppers in the unbid suits. It asks partner to bid 3NT with a stopper in their suit.

This hand is not suitable for that bid though since p would not know what to do if you bid 3NT.

You should certainly have raised to 2♦. You have a maximum for a raise: with a better hand you would have cued 2♣.

[vuroth]

Califdude, on Sep 25 2008, 01:58 AM, said:

Would you say pard should have bid a takeout double, which could mislead me about his support for majors? Was there any other bid available to show his strength?

Takeout double is generally interpreted as "I can't pick between the unbid suits - pick for me please partner". If partner doubles for takeout, THEN bids his own suit - well, the first meaning really doesn't fit, does it?

Maybe this was already clear for you, I'm not sure. If the bidding had gone:
1♣ X P 1H
P 2D
(or however many diamonds)

I wouldn't have counted on partner having any support in the majors. All I would know about partner's hand is that he had a monster in diamonds.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

To answer your question: No.

And further, respond with 6-8, if you have a fit,
find a bid, if you have 9 or more find a bid, so
you have to raise.

Hence both sides are to blame for missing game /
slam on the given set of hands.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ArtK78]

ochinko, on Sep 25 2008, 05:55 AM, said:

The upper limit for a direct overcall at level one is about 16 HCP.

I do not agree with that. Much depends on the hand, as has been stated above. The less you can stand to play in one of the other unbid suits, the more strength you need to double. I have seen some international-class players overcall with 18 HCP on a hand that cannot stand a jump response in one of the unbid majors.

Still, it is clear that this particular hand is too strong for a mere overcall.

[Lobowolf]

Califdude, on Sep 25 2008, 01:58 AM, said:

Would you say pard should have bid a takeout double, which could mislead me about his support for majors?

Be aware that the "misleading" aspect of the double is temporary. When partner doubles, you get the message that partner has support for the suits other than opener's; when partner subsequently bids his own suit, that effectively cancels the original message.

This is a slight over simplification, because the complete "message" of the takeout double really incorporates the strong hand; it's just much less common.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

Playing SAYC, is there any bid other than a takeout double to indicate a very strong one-suited hand in the overcall position?

Not really, but some hands might jump to game (3nt/4M/5m) if the thinking is that partner passing the double would work out badly, and one wants to avoid awkward decisions over something like (1c)-x-(3c)-4s-??. The downside to jumping to game is that it's rather wide ranging & partner may have a tough time assessing slam potential with a good hand. Then again with opponents opening the bidding the frequency slam is on is quite a bit lower than if they had passed.

I would seriously consider 3nt with your partner's hand, after all on a club lead it's almost cold if you have a diamond, and on a major suit lead, needs 2 diamonds, a 2-2 break and nothing else. Admittedly might miss the slam on this hand, though with 3 covers I think advancer should consider making a move.

Quote

I had QJ10 diamonds and both major suit kings for 9 points in a square hand and saw nothing forcing and no reason to bid.

Would you say I should have bid 2D, if so why?

Raising is 100% mandatory for your hand. There's like zero upside to passing 1d. The only time that would gain is if 1d was the last making spot for both you & your opponents, everyone knew that & you would know to defend if they balanced. This is 0% with your hand. OTOH raising can lead to a making game if partner is strong (people overcall up to 17, 18 pts, some even stronger depending on style, some experts advocate basically unlimited overcalls), can prevent the opponents from reaching a 2 of a major contract, and generally helps partner do the right thing in competition later.

[neilkaz]

ArtK78, on Sep 25 2008, 11:58 AM, said:

ochinko, on Sep 25 2008, 05:55 AM, said:

The upper limit for a direct overcall at level one is about 16 HCP.

I do not agree with that. Much depends on the hand, as has been stated above. The less you can stand to play in one of the other unbid suits, the more strength you need to double. I have seen some international-class players overcall with 18 HCP on a hand that cannot stand a jump response in one of the unbid majors.

Still, it is clear that this particular hand is too strong for a mere overcall.

Very true. The given hand is a monster of playing strength and a 2♣ opener for some.

The failure to raise to 2♦ is just as poor here as the overcall with the monster hand, IMHO.

Support with support !!

[ochinko]

ArtK78, on Sep 25 2008, 07:58 PM, said:

ochinko, on Sep 25 2008, 05:55 AM, said:

The upper limit for a direct overcall at level one is about 16 HCP.

I do not agree with that. Much depends on the hand, as has been stated above. The less you can stand to play in one of the other unbid suits, the more strength you need to double. I have seen some international-class players overcall with 18 HCP on a hand that cannot stand a jump response in one of the unbid majors.

Still, it is clear that this particular hand is too strong for a mere overcall.

Would you care to give an example hand? I wasn't talking about personal preferences but about what I thought was standard.

In Commonsense Bidding Bill Root writes that the maximum strength for an overcall with one suit is 17 points, but he adds a point for every card above four in a suit, so this translates exactly to 16 high card points with a 5 cards suit or even 14 with a 7 cards suit.

That's the exact opposite of what you said, because the more cards in a suit you have the less tolerance you'd have for any other suit, yet you need less HCP for a double with a long suit, not more.

[Lobowolf]

ochinko, on Sep 25 2008, 06:37 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Sep 25 2008, 07:58 PM, said:

ochinko, on Sep 25 2008, 05:55 AM, said:

The upper limit for a direct overcall at level one is about 16 HCP.

I do not agree with that. Much depends on the hand, as has been stated above. The less you can stand to play in one of the other unbid suits, the more strength you need to double. I have seen some international-class players overcall with 18 HCP on a hand that cannot stand a jump response in one of the unbid majors.

Still, it is clear that this particular hand is too strong for a mere overcall.

Would you care to give an example hand? I wasn't talking about personal preferences but about what I thought was standard.

In Commonsense Bidding Bill Root writes that the maximum strength for an overcall with one suit is 17 points, but he adds a point for every card above four in a suit, so this translates exactly to 16 high card points with a 5 cards suit or even 14 with a 7 cards suit.

That's the exact opposite of what you said, because the more cards in a suit you have the less tolerance you'd have for any other suit, yet you need less HCP for a double with a long suit, not more.

Many factors go into hand evaluation, and HCP become relatively less important the stronger a player gets (because part of getting stronger is developing the judgment and being more comfortable with hand evaluation criteria other than just counting points).

Having said all that, given a random hand where the choice is between overcalling, or doubling then bidding one's own suit, without having done any sort of systematic study, I would guess that in expert practice the average 17 point hand is far more likely to be an overcall than a "double first".

[ochinko]

Lobowolf, on Sep 26 2008, 02:56 AM, said:

ochinko, on Sep 25 2008, 06:37 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Sep 25 2008, 07:58 PM, said:

ochinko, on Sep 25 2008, 05:55 AM, said:

The upper limit for a direct overcall at level one is about 16 HCP.

I do not agree with that. Much depends on the hand, as has been stated above. The less you can stand to play in one of the other unbid suits, the more strength you need to double. I have seen some international-class players overcall with 18 HCP on a hand that cannot stand a jump response in one of the unbid majors.

Still, it is clear that this particular hand is too strong for a mere overcall.

Would you care to give an example hand? I wasn't talking about personal preferences but about what I thought was standard.

In Commonsense Bidding Bill Root writes that the maximum strength for an overcall with one suit is 17 points, but he adds a point for every card above four in a suit, so this translates exactly to 16 high card points with a 5 cards suit or even 14 with a 7 cards suit.

That's the exact opposite of what you said, because the more cards in a suit you have the less tolerance you'd have for any other suit, yet you need less HCP for a double with a long suit, not more.

Many factors go into hand evaluation, and HCP become relatively less important the stronger a player gets (because part of getting stronger is developing the judgment and being more comfortable with hand evaluation criteria other than just counting points).

Having said all that, given a random hand where the choice is between overcalling, or doubling then bidding one's own suit, without having done any sort of systematic study, I would guess that in expert practice the average 17 point hand is far more likely to be an overcall than a "double first".

I can't even tell whether you agree with me or argue with what I said. In my post that you cite I tried to be as clear as possible by distinguishing points and high card points but it's not clear to me what you mean by points.

I also don't know what you call an average 17 point hand. Average hands are balanced and would overcall 1NT with 17 points, not 1 in a suit.

And we all know that experts are less bound by points. But you can bid more like an expert if you follow expert advice (expressed through points if needed), not by using the force and ignoring points altogether.

I am seriously interested to know if there are experts who practise or advise overcalling at 1 level instead of going through a double first with 5+ cards in a suit and 17 high card points. At least until I become an expert myself I am going to pay a lot of attention what experts think.

[Codo]

There are surely experts who doubl first with 5 card suits and 17 HCPs. F.E. in FES the power part of the double shows 19+ FL.

Both has it advantages.

[Lobowolf]

ochinko, on Sep 26 2008, 04:07 AM, said:

Lobowolf, on Sep 26 2008, 02:56 AM, said:

ochinko, on Sep 25 2008, 06:37 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Sep 25 2008, 07:58 PM, said:

ochinko, on Sep 25 2008, 05:55 AM, said:

The upper limit for a direct overcall at level one is about 16 HCP.

I do not agree with that. Much depends on the hand, as has been stated above. The less you can stand to play in one of the other unbid suits, the more strength you need to double. I have seen some international-class players overcall with 18 HCP on a hand that cannot stand a jump response in one of the unbid majors.

Still, it is clear that this particular hand is too strong for a mere overcall.

Would you care to give an example hand? I wasn't talking about personal preferences but about what I thought was standard.

In Commonsense Bidding Bill Root writes that the maximum strength for an overcall with one suit is 17 points, but he adds a point for every card above four in a suit, so this translates exactly to 16 high card points with a 5 cards suit or even 14 with a 7 cards suit.

That's the exact opposite of what you said, because the more cards in a suit you have the less tolerance you'd have for any other suit, yet you need less HCP for a double with a long suit, not more.

Many factors go into hand evaluation, and HCP become relatively less important the stronger a player gets (because part of getting stronger is developing the judgment and being more comfortable with hand evaluation criteria other than just counting points).

Having said all that, given a random hand where the choice is between overcalling, or doubling then bidding one's own suit, without having done any sort of systematic study, I would guess that in expert practice the average 17 point hand is far more likely to be an overcall than a "double first".

I can't even tell whether you agree with me or argue with what I said. In my post that you cite I tried to be as clear as possible by distinguishing points and high card points but it's not clear to me what you mean by points.

I also don't know what you call an average 17 point hand. Average hands are balanced and would overcall 1NT with 17 points, not 1 in a suit.

And we all know that experts are less bound by points. But you can bid more like an expert if you follow expert advice (expressed through points if needed), not by using the force and ignoring points altogether.

I am seriously interested to know if there are experts who practise or advise overcalling at 1 level instead of going through a double first with 5+ cards in a suit and 17 high card points. At least until I become an expert myself I am going to pay a lot of attention what experts think.

Sorry to have been a little long-winded and obscure there. First, I was just trying to make a disclaimer about HCP in general, and emphasizing that they're not the be-all, end-all of hand evaluation.

Second, I was saying that in expert practice...given a suit that the player wants to introduce (not a NT hand, or a 2-suited hand, but one suit to introduce)... for most 17 point hands (by far), it'll be an overcall not a double-and-bid.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

I am seriously interested to know if there are experts who practise or advise overcalling at 1 level instead of going through a double first with 5+ cards in a suit and 17 high card points. At least until I become an expert myself I am going to pay a lot of attention what experts think

Yes, many 17 hcp hands with 6 cd suit that evaluate to 19-21 pt playing strength are going to double first. I think with only 5 cd suit though most of 17 hcp hands will just overcall. And I think 15 hcp hands with shape (good 6 cd suit, stiff, etc.) that evaluate to 17-18 pts are usually going to just overcall also. I think in general the threshold for doubling first just because you are strong is generally higher for better, more experienced players than weaker players. Maybe because they've seen way more of the disasters that happen when partner bids 3/4 of your stiff/doubleton major than being passed out at one when cold for game!

Advancer should raise on hands 6+ with a fit (over a 1 level overcall), and bid something (1nt, new suit) on many hands 8+ without a fit if 3rd hand passed.

The main things you are weighing in your mind are:
- what disasters can befall after partner bids your short major at a high level after the opp's preemptive raise. Am I going to have to bid a 5 cd suit, will I survive when partner doesn't have a fit for it? Will I be able to show my sixth card if I have it?
- am I really going to miss a lot of games if partner has support and say 5- pts, or a doubleton- supp 6 to bad 8, AND the opps don't give me another chance by bidding?

Basically I think you have a candidate for doubling first if in a non-competitive auction, the hand would have opened 1 then rebid 2nt, or jump-shifted.

[han]

I doubled with a mere 16-count the other day (A1087 x A AKJxxxx after 1D). Unfortunately when I posted the hand on the forums the only poster who publically supported my choice was rogerclee.