[paulg]

Scoring: IMP

                  (Pass)
1♣ (1♥) Dbl (Pass)
?

---

You are playing 5cM, 15-17 1NT, better minor.

Double is takeout denying 4 or more spades (2♣ from partner would be simple raise, 2♦ would be one round force)

RHO's Pass denies the ace or king of hearts.

Your call?

[dicklont]

1NT for me, pass is too speculative for me.
When 1♥ goes down we have a good chance to make a game.

[Sambolino]

poor spots, 1N

[P_Marlowe]

1NT, wtp?

With kind regards
Malowe

[hatchett]

Ok you got me, I can't see the problem here. 1NT

[Walddk]

This is a trick question, surely. I wouldn't have a problem at the table, so I don't have one here. There is no alternative to 1NT. On a good day we may have 200 against 1♥X if partner is weakish, but then we would likely also make 1NT, perhaps with an overtrick or two.

No big deal. I am not going to pass and sometimes concede 160 or worse.

Roland

[paulg]

Well not intended as a trick question, I just wondered how close it was to passing. Not very close apparently

Naturally you are getting +500 from the pass and +120 from 1NT.

Paul

[jtfanclub]

cardsharp, on Sep 16 2008, 10:16 AM, said:

Well not intended as a trick question, I just wondered how close it was to passing. Not very close apparently

Naturally you are getting +500 from the pass and +120 from 1NT.

Paul

It seems like if you're going to use X here to deny 4 spades, it might be useful to have it also promise a semi-positive with enough hearts to allow you to leave it in. After all, you have lots of other bids available for the hands where this isn't appropriate (like 1NT).

But that's probably because I never understood this concept. X is takeout but denies spades? Two suits have already been bid, you're denying the 3rd, what does takeout really mean here?

[pclayton]

jtfanclub, on Sep 16 2008, 07:34 AM, said:

cardsharp, on Sep 16 2008, 10:16 AM, said:

Well not intended as a trick question, I just wondered how close it was to passing. Not very close apparently

Naturally you are getting +500 from the pass and +120 from 1NT.

Paul

It seems like if you're going to use X here to deny 4 spades, it might be useful to have it also promise a semi-positive with enough hearts to allow you to leave it in. After all, you have lots of other bids available for the hands where this isn't appropriate (like 1NT).

But that's probably because I never understood this concept. X is takeout but denies spades? Two suits have already been bid, you're denying the 3rd, what does takeout really mean here?

You don't design bidding systems around penalizing the opponents at the one level.

Double simply means "I have no good bid". I can't raise clubs, I don't have spades, and I don't have a good NT stopper.

Passing 1♥ x'd deserves to get a 3=1=6=3 7 count from partner.

[paulg]

jtfanclub, on Sep 16 2008, 03:34 PM, said:

But that's probably because I never understood this concept.  X is takeout but denies spades?  Two suits have already been bid, you're denying the 3rd, what does takeout really mean here?

It is typically a hand with some support for both minors and 5-6 cards in the majors, without four spades and no heart stop. You won't always want to support clubs directly just because you have four of them.

I have always found this treatment more useful than distinguishing between a 4- and 5-card spade suit, but fair to say that it seems more common in Europe than the US.

Paul

[jtfanclub]

pclayton, on Sep 16 2008, 11:53 AM, said:

You don't design bidding systems around penalizing the opponents at the one level.

Double simply means "I have no good bid". I can't raise clubs, I don't have spades, and I don't have a good NT stopper.

Passing 1♥ x'd deserves to get a 3=1=6=3 7 count from partner.

Agree that as currently designed you wouldn't want to pass this.

But in Precision this isn't rare. 1♣ opener, 1♥ overcall, X showing a semipostive (not enough for game across a minimum, no long suit), and passed around. Having an X here be a semipositive in Standard, which would include the concept that "If you have a 12-14 balanced hand, we don't have game, but I have defensive values and at least 2 hearts" should be playable. Even if it's unlikely that you'd play in 1♥X, it can mean that you won't compete to 3 of a minor over 2♥, for example.

I dunno, just playing around with bidding concepts here. You can have:

A: 1♥ "no heart stopper" and 1NT mean "heart stopper", or

B: 1♥ mean "no interest in game across a balanced 14 count, but enough for game across an 18 count", while 1NT means "Game interest across a balanced 14 count, but not enough to force game".

I feel that B is more useful. For one thing, I'm not scared of playing 1NT without a heart stopper, if we have 22-23 hcp. I'm more scared that my partner will go past 1NT when that's the limit of the hand, or won't go past when we have game. It seems like 1NT would have quite a wide range as written, especially if responder has 4 hearts. The big risk is wrongsiding 3NT. Probably be more useful in MPs.

Just trying to figure out some of the logic behind these bids.

[Walddk]

cardsharp, on Sep 16 2008, 05:16 PM, said:

Naturally you are getting +500 from the pass and +120 from 1NT.

Paul

Please show us the hand where you have 500 against 1♥X. If this is the hand I think I found a little while ago (and it must be since the hand here is identical), 1♥ doubled goes 1 down on any lead.

You are welcome to defend, Paul. I'll declare and score 6 tricks on any defence.

Roland

[paulg]

Clearly my quick analysis was wrong!

Watching the match at the time it never occurred to me that the player would do anything other than bid 1NT. But a kibitzer maintained that passing was a real option.

p

[andy_h]

Agree 1NT wtp

[pclayton]

jtfanclub, on Sep 16 2008, 01:24 PM, said:

Unread:

Even if it's unlikely that you'd play in 1♥X, it can mean that you won't compete to 3 of a minor over 2♥, for example.

I dunno, just playing around with bidding concepts here.  You can have:

A: 1♥ "no heart stopper" and 1NT mean "heart stopper", or

B: 1♥ mean "no interest in game across a balanced 14 count, but enough for game across an 18 count", while 1NT means "Game interest across a balanced 14 count, but not enough to force game".

I feel that B is more useful.  For one thing, I'm not scared of playing 1NT without a heart stopper, if we have 22-23 hcp.  I'm more scared that my partner will go past 1NT when that's the limit of the hand, or won't go past when we have game.  It seems like 1NT would have quite a wide range as written, especially if responder has 4 hearts.  The big risk is wrongsiding 3NT.  Probably be more useful in MPs.

Just trying to figure out some of the logic behind these bids.

JT I have a lot of patience for nonsense but when I read something like:

Quote

But in Precision this isn't rare.  1♣ opener, 1♥ overcall, X showing a semipostive (not enough for game across a minimum, no long suit), and passed around.  Having an X here be a semipositive in Standard, which would include the concept that "If you have a 12-14 balanced hand, we don't have game, but I have defensive values and at least 2 hearts" should be playable.

1st you bring up a Precision auction and 'liken' it to a standard auction. I hope you can appreciate that when you open a Precision 1♣ you don't show clubs. Then you bring up an equally inane concept of double meaning a semi-positive, go ahead and pass with a weak NT and two hearts at the one level. WTF does this mean? Are we trying to blithely saw off the opponents' 1 level contract when we have, say 3 trump opposite two?

I won't respond to the rest of your post because honestly I stopped reading it.

[jtfanclub]

pclayton, on Sep 16 2008, 09:45 PM, said:

 

Quote

1st you bring up a Precision auction and 'liken' it to a standard auction. I hope you can appreciate that when you open a Precision 1♣ you don't show clubs.

And you've shown *so many* clubs on this auction. The X as described here doesn't deny clubs- heck, you could have 4 of them.

Quote

Then you bring up an equally inane concept of double meaning a semi-positive, go ahead and pass with a weak NT and two hearts at the one level.  WTF does this mean?

A double would a semi-positive (7 to a bad 10, for example). It denies 4 spades or a long minor. It's a single call which discribes all opener generally needs to know if he has 14 or less in order to place the contract. Most of the time, opener will take it to 1NT or two clubs with 14 or less. If he's got a 4-4-2-3 with decent hearts or something equivalent, it wouldn't be a shock to leave it in. But that's not where you make your money.

Quote

Are we trying to blithely saw off the opponents' 1 level contract when we have, say 3 trump opposite two?

Um, no.

Quote

I won't respond to the rest of your post because honestly I stopped reading it.

Thank God for small favors, since you didn't understand the first two lines.

Let me dumb it down for you:

Current difference between X and 1NT: Heart stopper.
Better difference between X and 1NT: Point range.

Did that help?

[jdonn]

jtfanclub, on Sep 16 2008, 11:49 PM, said:

Current difference between X and 1NT: Heart stopper.
Better difference between X and 1NT: Point range.

LOL

[Walddk]

cardsharp, on Sep 17 2008, 12:39 AM, said:

But a kibitzer maintained that passing was a real option.

p

That kibitzer should be sentened to watching Stornoway's* home matches six consecutive times. He bids as badly as they play football (soccer).

* Stornoway is located in the Outer Hebrides of Scotland. Very unpleasant climate.

Roland

[paulg]

Walddk, on Sep 17 2008, 08:58 AM, said:

cardsharp, on Sep 17 2008, 12:39 AM, said:

But a kibitzer maintained that passing was a real option.

p

That kibitzer should be sentened to watching Stornoway's* home matches six consecutive times. He bids as badly as they play football (soccer).

* Stornoway is located in the Outer Hebrides of Scotland. Very unpleasant climate.

Roland

I'll let you tell her that next time you're at Peebles. I'll be in Stornoway, out the way

Actually the Outer Hebrides can be the most beautiful place in the world. Glorious beaches, renown surfing and little traffic. This is when the sun shines but, I will concede, there are nicer places when the sun is not shining.

Perhaps the best indication of the dominating weather is that there are no trees.

p

[pclayton]

jtfanclub, on Sep 16 2008, 08:49 PM, said:

Quote

I won't respond to the rest of your post because honestly I stopped reading it.

Thank God for small favors, since you didn't understand the first two lines.

JT you are like a yappy little dog that nips at ankles.

While you post a lot here, I generally skip over what you are saying, but sometimes a JT post will be at the end of a thread, so read it since its on my screen. Your next original or innovative thought will be the first. You frequently come up with a questionable idea and spend the next several days defending it, when you should have given it a little more thought in the first place. Rexford used to pull ideas out of his butt the same way, until everyone started callling him on it, but even then there were germs of some good ideas in there.

______

Lets go back a little. You started this whole discussion with this:

Quote

It seems like if you're going to use X here to deny 4 spades, it might be useful to have it also promise a semi-positive with enough hearts to allow you to leave it in. After all, you have lots of other bids available for the hands where this isn't appropriate (like 1NT).

This seemed to be a clever idea designed to handle the actual problem. Yum, 500's from thin air. Walsh had it all wrong. If double denies 4 spades, then lets make it PROMISE 'x' hearts.

You then make some loose comparison to a double in response to a strong club. While I agree with your definition of a 'semi-positive', double is seldom used to show strictly this.

I have played a strong club for 12 of my 28 years of bridge, and I have never converted a semi-positive x with four trump at the one level, especially with a minimum range opener. If I have, i don't remember doing so, but its such an oddity.

Lets say a semi-positive double shows 5-7ish and denies a long suit. Arent we doubling 1♥ on a hand like Kxxx void Kxxx xxxxx? You imply that opener can (should) leave it in on: xx AQTx AQx KQxx. This is not winning bridge.

Your latest missive is:

Quote

Let me dumb it down for you:

Current difference between X and 1NT: Heart stopper.
Better difference between X and 1NT: Point range.

Apparently this isn't dumb enough for me, especially since it completely contradicts what you have said prior. You said before x is 7-10 with 2 hearts. Now 1N is a different range? Are you suggesting double now shows a heart stop? That 1N denies a stop?

Wait, don't answer. Give this at least several hours before you respond. try to come up with some arguments why what you are suggesting doesn't make sense, and then refute them. Stop pulling ideas out of your ass and just typing what comes into your brain. You aren't a bidding theorist, but you might as well understand how the process works.

If then you still think this is a worthy approach, proceed. If not, please stop wasting everyone's time.