[ArtK78]

Scoring: IMP

---

Your partner opens 1NT (15-17) and you hold the hand shown above. The conditions are IMPs all vul, but feel free to discuss other conditions.

Do you pass? Do you invite in notrump? Do you bid Stayman? If you bid Stayman how do you continue if partner has 4 hearts? If he doesn't have 4 hearts?

Also please feel free to comment on how close your decisions are. If they are close, what cards would have to change for you to take a stronger or weaker action?

[matmat]

I stayman and issue the appropriate invite.

[han]

We just had one of these and I invited. If I pass now, does that make me a hypocrite?

[ArtK78]

han, on Sep 15 2008, 03:20 PM, said:

We just had one of these and I invited. If I pass now, does that make me a hypocrite?

Perhaps.

Could you direct me to the other thread? I must have missed it.

This hand came up in a local Sectional Swiss yesterday. I made the losing decision and my partner disagreed with my decision, although he said he has had some discussions with others who would have agreed with my decision. I am looking for a consensus, if there is one.

More precisely, I am trying to determine the point between pass and invitation. I thought that this hand was right about on the line. Others might disagree.

[mike777]

http://forums.bridge...opic=27368&st=0




http://viewsfromthebridgetable.blogspot.co...te-paradox.html

[han]

Art, whatever you did on this hand, I wouldn't feel bad about it.

[jtfanclub]

I liked the other hand better.

[Lobowolf]

ArtK78, on Sep 15 2008, 12:19 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

Your partner opens 1NT (15-17) and you hold the hand shown above. The conditions are IMPs all vul, but feel free to discuss other conditions.

Do you pass? Do you invite in notrump? Do you bid Stayman? If you bid Stayman how do you continue if partner has 4 hearts? If he doesn't have 4 hearts?

Also please feel free to comment on how close your decisions are. If they are close, what cards would have to change for you to take a stronger or weaker action?

At the given conditions, I'd invite with an eye toward 3NT. At pairs, I'd pass 1NT. Even if I knew partner had 4 hearts, I'd prefer 3NT to 4♥

[shubi]

after opening 1nt with 20 count, whatever i do partner has one thing to say SORRY. period.

[pclayton]

shubi, on Sep 15 2008, 12:42 PM, said:

after opening 1nt with 20 count, whatever i do partner has one thing to say SORRY. period.

Yes, this underscores the importance of inviting.

[ArtK78]

I remember the other thread now. I even participated in it, but not on this issue.

At the table, I passed, and partner made 11 tricks! He had a max with good spots, and we had a 4-4 heart fit. Not only did he find the missing ♥Q, but every time the defense touched a card, they gave him a trick.

The blog about the paradox that a hand might be good enough to invite in NT but if you find a 4-4 major fit you should stop short of game is interesting. This hand might be one of those, but partner's hand is so good that 4♥ will probably make anytime he finds the missing ♥Q. He certainly has a loser in every side suit.

I believe that he held this hand:

Scoring: IMP

---

[dicklont]

ArtK78, on Sep 15 2008, 03:59 PM, said:

I believe that he held this hand:

Dealer: South Vul: Both Scoring: IMP

♠ AT ♥ KTxx ♦ AQTx ♣ A9x

That raises the next question: is 1NT an underbid for 17HCP with three tens?

[EricK]

dicklont, on Sep 15 2008, 09:43 PM, said:

That raises the next question: is 1NT an underbid for 17HCP with three tens?

I would upgrade this hand if playing 15-17.

[mike777]

edit

[jdonn]

I invite on all but the worst 8s, I guess my experiences are different from most. Also if I didn't I might never invite at all, since 8 with a five card suit or 9 tends to be a game bid

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I would say pass, ... i said in the other thread, I would
invite.

I believe the hand is slightly weaker, than the hand in
the other thread, but using the 6421 count, I get the
same number, the same for the number os controls,
so ... no facts to back my believes up.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[NickRW]

P_Marlowe, on Sep 16 2008, 12:01 PM, said:

Hi,

I would say pass, ... i said in the other thread, I would
invite....

Yeah - I tend to agree - this one looks much more marginal. I might invite if partner never upgrades 14s and even perhaps downgrades a 15 once in blue moon - otherwise I'm content to take the plus.

[NickRW]

ArtK78, on Sep 15 2008, 05:19 PM, said:

Also please feel free to comment on how close your decisions are.  If they are close, what cards would have to change for you to take a stronger or weaker action?

OK, you did ask!

I base my assessment of a hand around the 6/4/2/1 count - plus quite a reasonable amount for distribution when assessing a hand for suit play - basically the same as zar points except that I think 2 for length in the longest suit is overkill.

This isn't, however, brilliant for NT. I adjust the 6/4/2/1 count to something similar to what is, in effect, the system of fifths (4, 2.8, 1.8, 1, 0.4) except based around a 52 point deck. This is 5.5, 4, 2.25, 1.25, 0.5, 0.25 - plus 1 for a six card suit, 0.5 for a 5 carder and 0.25 if the longest suit is 4 cards but not a 4333 shape. This is hard work on your thinking apparatus, but does seem to pay dividends - so I persist with it - I don't expect many others to pick this system up and use it.

A 15 count is about 20.25 on this system. Shouldn't be as bad as 19.5 or it should probably be downgraded to my mind. I like to see a total of 34 ideally in the two hands for 3N if playing MP. 33.5 is OK for nv at IMPs, can be as pushy as only 33 for vul at IMPs. I like to be reasonably assured that we have 32 or damn close to it to invite. This means that I would like to have at least 11.75 to invite. The example hand is 11.25 - therefore I am going to risk passing.

As a 17 count could be around 22.75 on this system (any more and I would be thinking of upgrading) I am risking missing a game - but 15 counts are a good deal more common than 17s - also you don't make all games that any point count system suggests are probable anyway, so I prefer the plus.

This hand counts for more by the NT method here than it will by the suit method (usually it is the other way round) - and I'm looking for 36 for 4M, so I won't even think about hearts.

Nick

[kfay]

There's an old bridgeworld article that says something like a balanced 8.5-9 HCP hand is needed to invite at vul IMPs. Balanced 9.5-10 count makes a good invite at non-vul (pretty sure although maybe it was 9-9.5)

Some big analysis taking into account +/- expectation at game and also going down in 2NT. When I read it I thought it was kind of funny because obviously you learn 8-9 HCP is an invite but here it's only a half-HCP range that makes or breaks the invite.

Obvoiusly 5-card suits and such throw a big wrench in the analysis.

This definitely looks like 8.5+ HCP to me so I'd invite.

[han]

9.5-10 is wrong Kevin, I remember the article. I thought it was in bridge today.