[mike777]

Do expert players downgrade most if not all....14-16 or 15-17 nt openings when 4333 or basically never downgrade?

[han]

Yeah, I'll downgrade if I'm 4333, aceless and spotless. All three.

[pclayton]

Agree with Han. Not worth a 15 IMO.

[CSGibson]

No. I got dealt 15 HCP and a balanced hand, then I'm bidding it, and letting partner worry about looking after the spots.

[Gerben42]

I would downgrade 4432 with stiff QJ or KJ.

[gwnn]

I downgrade a bad balanced x count out of a strong club if I can open 1NT (but not out of natural 1m). But never not open 1NT sorry. People are known to misdefend, etc.

[jdonn]

If you are playing matchpoints you should never downgrade into or out of 1NT for strategic reasons, just open the normal thing and beat them in the play. At imps you should never do it for scoring reasons, they give a bonus for making game you know!

Yes Han does it. He is a small minority, and we deservedly mock him

[pclayton]

jdonn, on Sep 14 2008, 08:00 AM, said:

If you are playing matchpoints you should never downgrade into or out of 1NT for strategic reasons, just open the normal thing and beat them in the play. At imps you should never do it for scoring reasons, they give a bonus for making game you know!

Yes Han does it. He is a small minority, and we deservedly mock him

I know I'll get flamed for this, but if your judgment tells you not to open 1N at MPs, then don't do it. I've never bought into the whole "field" philosophy on hands like this.

If opening 1N rates to get you to a crappy 3N, then don't do it. I'm perfectly happy to play a superior contract than the rest of the field.

Using the 'field' logic, you should also open 1N with Ax Kxx AKxxx QJx. After all its a balanced 17, and we expect the sheep to open this 1N.

[helene_t]

I don't get it. If I am supposed to open 1NT even with some very bad 15-counts, then I should also do so with intermediate 14-counts and good 13-counts, and I should write 14-17 or something on my CC.

I can understand that literal MW points may be significant if playing a weak 1NT, since failure to open with a bad 12-point is more likely to cause a passout than is failure to open a good 10-count. For strong NT, I don't see the relevance of the literal MW count. If I evaluate a particular 14-count as equally good as a particular 15-count then I should be equally likely to open 1NT on both of them.

[jdonn]

pclayton, on Sep 14 2008, 11:42 AM, said:

If opening 1N rates to get you to a crappy 3N, then don't do it.

Who says it does?

[han]

I don't agree with jdonn. It is true that poor bridge players will only count their HCP and it pays to stay with the field at matchpoint (assuming that you play the cards as well as jdonn thinks he does). So he has a good point there.

On the other hand, some really bad 15-counts are much worse than some really nice 14-counts. Only beginners would disagree with that. It doesn't make sense to me to open the former with 1NT and the latter with 1m. So I'll upgrade a 14-count if it seems to me that it will play like a reasonable 15-count, and I'll downgrade a 15-count if it seems to me that it will play worse than most 14-counts. Notice I much prefer upgrading to downgrading, mostly because I think it is generally and advantage to open 1NT.

It is true that in the past I've gone a bit far with upgrading and downgrading. The mocking was not only entertaining, it has also made me more conservative with this but I will still adjust HCP more often than Justin or Josh.

[han]

pclayton, on Sep 14 2008, 11:42 AM, said:

Using the 'field' logic, you should also open 1N with Ax Kxx AKxxx QJx.

Yes, I would open 1NT with this hand, you don't have enough respect for spotcards Phil.

To upgrade out of a 1NT opening you will need to give me a better hand.

[jdonn]

han, on Sep 14 2008, 12:44 PM, said:

It is true that in the past I've gone a bit far with upgrading and downgrading. The mocking was not only entertaining, it has also made me more conservative with this

The system works! It really works!!

[NickRW]

helene_t, on Sep 14 2008, 04:51 PM, said:

I don't get it. If I am supposed to open 1NT even with some very bad 15-counts, then I should also do so with intermediate 14-counts and good 13-counts, and I should write 14-17 or something on my CC.

I think you should probably write something on your CC, but whether it should say 14-17 is, to me, an open question. Some people, probably the majority by a long way I guess open a fixed hcp range - normally 15-17 or 12-14. But, to use the weak range just for exmple, some of their 12s are no better than 11 and some of their 14s are worth a 15. If that is the really the case, is someone who upgrades good 11s to 12, downgrades bad 12s to 11, good 14s to 15 and bad 15s to 14 really being less accurate with their NT range if they call it 12-14? Should they really say 11-15, when, allowing for good/bad features, their range is arguably/actually more narrowly defined than someone who religiously plays 12-14hcp only?

Nick

[helene_t]

NickRW, on Sep 14 2008, 10:15 PM, said:

Should they really say 11-15, when, allowing for good/bad features, their range is arguably/actually more narrowly defined than someone who religiously plays 12-14hcp only?

That is not what I am saying. Consider

KQJ
KQJ
xxxx
xxx

vs

Axx
KJTx
J9xx
Qx

T9
T9x
T9x
AKQJT

If you treat all of them as 12 points then IMHO you are misinforming. Your real lower range for a 1NT opening is closer to 11 in the sense that your minimum is a hand with a playing strength like an average balanced 11-count.

OTOH if you treat them as 12/11/10, or 11/11/11, or 10/11/12 then you are not biased relative to literal MW counts, you just have a judgment with which some would disagree. I think it would be overkill to make statements on the CC about method of hand evaluation but maybe it depends on the setting.

It's not clear to me what the purpose of the OP is. Is it about whether we use adjustments to MW counts when deciding whether or not to open 1NT? To this I suppose all of us would say yes.

Or is it about whether we are uncomfortable with the NT range stated on our CC and therefore look for opportunities to 1NT on more/fewer/weaker/stronger hands? Suppose 15-17 would spell 14.500-17.499 if one uses 3-digit accuracy, but have the partnership understanding to play 14.300-17.299 but write 15-17 on the CC for simplicity, then I would say I upgrade more often than I downgrade.

[TMorris]

I play a weak NT in the UK, will open a good 11 eg with QJ10xx in a suit but pass a bad 12 eg

Axxx
xxx
Axx
Axx

and especially so vulnerable in 3rd.

I will also downgrade a bad 15 eg with QJ stiff in a suit.

I still say 12-14 as any such up/downgrades occur infrequently. Stating 11+ to 15- is inaccurate as people might expect more 11 & 15 counts than actually occur, although I do say "may not open a poor 12" on my CC.

I consider this all fairly standard although am happy to be educated otherwise.

[inquiry]

In jimmy cayne matches, jec and his partners play 15-17 1NT, when holding 18 hcp and 4333 they seem to open 1NT essentially all the time.

Here are examples of then they hold 15 hcp and 4333 and what they open, draw your own conclusions.

IMP-223     miamiwiz    Dlr: West  
Board 28    S AK5       Vul: N-S
           H AJ7      
fanny4      D J95       stewball    
S J97       C 8742      S Q642      
H T54                   H K983      
D 76432     jec         D A8        
C T9        S T83       C Q63      
           H Q62      
           D KQT      
           C AKJ5      

09-Dec-05  3:04:06 AM
First  2:27:53 AM, Last  3:04:06 AM

East       South      West       North      
fanny4     miamiwiz   stewball   jec        
                     Pass       1C        
Pass       2NT*       Pass       3NT        
Pass       Pass       Pass      

1. forcing

------------------------------------------
IMP-1616    jec         Dlr: East  
Board 26    S J96       Vul: Both
           H AT985    
ybob        D A43       supermax    
S KT8       C J6        S Q754      
H 6                     H J32      
D K752      miamiwiz    D JT9      
C 98732     S A32       C KQ5      
           H KQ74      
           D Q86      
           C AT4      

East       South      West       North      
ybob       jec        supermax   miamiwiz  
Pass       Pass       Pass       1C        
Pass       1H         Pass       2H        
Pass       Pass       Pass      

------------------------------------------
IMP-387     ollina      Dlr: East  
Board 26    S QT642     Vul: Both
           H KT2      
baylind     D T4        coach1      
S J7        C Q96       S K5        
H A6543                 H 87        
D KQ982     jec         D J73      
C K         S A983      C JT7532    
           H QJ9      
           D A65      
           C A84      

West       North      East       South      
baylind    ollina     coach1     jec        
47.24      65.87      52.22      60.41      
                     Pass       1C        
1H         1S         Pass       2S        
3D         3S         Pass       Pass      
Pass      

------------------------------------------
IMP-1840    miamiwiz    Dlr: West  
Board 8     S AQT9      Vul: None
           H Q83      
helstokk    D Q98       ghelgemo    
S J743      C T98       S K5        
H AKT62                 H 94        
D JT6       jec         D K752      
C 3         S 862       C 76542    
           H J75      
           D A43      
           C AKQJ      

West       North      East       South      
helstokk   miamiwiz   ghelgemo   jec        
45.94      56.44      48.36      60.41      
Pass       Pass       Pass       1C        
1H         Dbl        Pass       1NT        
Pass       Pass       Pass      

------------------------------------------
IMP-1315    jec         Dlr: North
Board 9     S KQJ75     Vul: E-W
           H J753      
gabipest    D QT        jakartajl  
S 43        C K8        S T62      
H T4                    H KQ86      
D AJ98653   miamiwiz    D 7        
C Q6        S A98       C J7532    
           H A92      
           D K42      
           C AT94      

East       South      West       North      
gabipest   jec        jakartajl  miamiwiz  
60.59      60.41      59.44      56.44      
                                1C        
2D         2S         Pass       3NT        
Pass       Pass       Pass      


------------------------------------------
IMP-1282    jec         Dlr: West  
Board 4     S T753      Vul: Both
           H A86      
PYG         D A974      Jackth      
S A842      C J5        S QJ        
H T5                    H J732      
D K5        weedo       D JT83      
C T8632     S K96       C A74      
           H KQ94      
           D Q62      
           C KQ9      

East       South      West       North      
PYG        jec        Jackth     weedo      
62.06      60.41      54.73      49.66      
                     Pass       1C        
Pass       1S         Pass       1NT        
Pass       Pass       Pass      

---------------------------------------
IMP-351     smispi      Dlr: West  
Board 4     S A3        Vul: Both
           H KJ3      
weedo       D J97       earlg      
S 98        C AJ632     S QJ642    
H 987652                H 4        
D T5        jec         D K6432    
C KQ9       S KT75      C 74        
           H AQT      
           D AQ8      
           C T85      

East       South      West       North      
weedo      smispi     earlg      jec        
49.66      58.12      51.79      60.41      
                     Pass       1NT        
Pass       3NT        Pass       Pass      
Pass      

------------------------------------------
IMP-351     jec         Dlr: East  
Board 14    S K8        Vul: None
           H K2        
earlg       D 97654     weedo      
S T62       C AQ85      S QJ54      
H J963                  H A854      
D 2         smispi      D JT83      
C KT632     S A973      C J        
           H QT7      
           D AKQ      
           C 974      

17-Dec-05  2:02:44 AM
First  1:30:42 AM, Last  2:02:44 AM

West       North      East       South      
earlg      jec        weedo      smispi    
                     Pass       1NT        
Pass       3NT        Pass       Pass      
Pass      

------------------------------------------
IMP-875     miamiwiz    Dlr: North
Board 5     S AK        Vul: N-S
           H 7        
lokaty      D A9862     satyryk    
S 95        C KJT84     S JT8642    
H KQT943                H J65      
D QT3       jec         D J7  --Ben--

[inquiry]

IMP-875     miamiwiz    Dlr: North
Board 5     S AK        Vul: N-S
           H 7        
lokaty      D A9862     satyryk    
S 95        C KJT84     S JT8642    
H KQT943                H J65      
D QT3       jec         D J7        
C 62        S Q73       C 97        
           H A82      
           D K54      
           C AQ53      

23-Dec-05 12:57:26 AM
First 12:55:46 AM, Last 12:57:26 AM

East       South      West       North      
lokaty     miamiwiz   satyryk    jec        
                                1NT        
3H         4D         Pass       5D        
Pass       6D         Pass       Pass      
Pass      

------------------------------------------
IMP-771     jec         Dlr: West  
Board 20    S KT7       Vul: Both
           H JT83      
sillafu     D A76       snabu      
S Q943      C K42       S J8        
H K4                    H A762      
D T2        smispi      D J9853    
C QJ963     S A652      C T5        
           H Q95      
           D KQ4      
           C A87      

14-Jan-06  2:34:47 AM
First  2:32:30 AM, Last  2:34:47 AM

West       North      East       South      
sillafu    jec        snabu      smispi    
Pass       Pass       Pass       1NT        
Pass       3NT        Pass       Pass      
Pass      

------------------------------------------
IMP-703     ollina      Dlr: North
Board 25    S K8542     Vul: E-W
           H          
caracci     D QJ32      loloc      
S 7         C QT75      S QJT3      
H J9852                 H KQT63    
D 9754      jec         D K6        
C 843       S A96       C AJ        
           H A74      
           D AT8      
           C K962      

24-Jan-06  2:33:45 AM
First  2:33:45 AM, Last  3:00:22 AM

East       South      West       North      
caracci    ollina     loloc      jec        
                                1NT        
Pass       2H         Dbl        2S        
Pass       4S         Pass       Pass      
Pass      

------------------------------------------
IMP-662     ollina      Dlr: North
Board 13    S Q542      Vul: Both
           H JT7      
LLORENZO    D T92       nevaio      
S 986       C AQ8       S J7        
H K43                   H AQ62      
D 64        jec         D AJ753    
C J9754     S AKT3      C 62        
           H 985      
           D KQ8      
           C KT3      

29-Jan-06  9:10:03 PM
First  9:10:03 PM, Last  9:20:49 PM

East       South      West       North      
LLORENZO   ollina     nevaio     jec        
                                1NT        
Pass       2NT        Pass       3NT        
Pass       Pass       Pass      

[pclayton]

han, on Sep 14 2008, 09:46 AM, said:

pclayton, on Sep 14 2008, 11:42 AM, said:

Using the 'field' logic, you should also open 1N with Ax Kxx AKxxx QJx.

Yes, I would open 1NT with this hand, you don't have enough respect for spotcards Phil.

To upgrade out of a 1NT opening you will need to give me a better hand.

Han, you can keep your spotcards. I'll take AK-5th over 10's and 9's any day