[FrancesHinden]

awm, on Aug 30 2008, 06:41 AM, said:

As a side question, what do you think about this hand on the same auction:

♠xxx ♥KQxx ♦KJ9 ♣AJ9

well, someone has finally posted a 3433 14-count on which I'd double a 1♠ opening

[Lobowolf]

mcphee, on Aug 30 2008, 09:00 AM, said:

This hand is a dble of 4S. Why it is a better choice IMO than 4NT is because 4NT is generally used as a 2 suited hand type, and its easy to see this is not the hand you hold.

I feel sorry for players who use dble as penalty of 4S, they get screwed on hands like this.
Dblr =10
4N = 2
P = 0

It's not necessary to have a 2-suited hand; it's feasible, because if partner bids the short suit, you pull to the next one up, suggesting the other two; here, you don't care what suit partner responds in -- you have support for all of them. How is that getting screwed? 4NT pick a suit - partner bids anything at the 5-level, and you're right where you would be if he'd responded to a takeout double.

10 vs 2 on the score because what, opener can't sit for the double?

[jdonn]

2 is generous for 4NT (unless you play it specifically as three suited takeout, in which case your methods are old fashioned and bad). It's partly that partner can pass a double, which is his most common action. But more it's that if 4NT can be two or three suited partner has NO CLUE what suit to respond in. What does he bids if he is 2533? 2542? You are missing your heart fit to play in worse minor suit fits? And if he has six hearts it's even worse. I mean god forbid he is 3721 and has to worry you have minors...

[gnasher]

Using 4NT to cover all of your two-and three-suited takeout hands has several disadvantages:

- You can't defend 4♠x

- Facing a three-suited takeout, advancer can't use 4NT to show two places to play. With 1=4=3=5 opposite x=4=4=x, some of the time you will end up in diamonds.

- If advancer has to cater for a two-suiter, sometimes he has to bid a 3-card suit. With 4=4=3=2 opposite a 4NT bid that is either two-or three-suited, advancer has to bid 5♦, presumably playing there opposite a 1=4=3=5.

- You can't cope with both 5-5 and 6-4 shapes. Playing takeout doubles, you can use double followed by converting 5D as 4-6 in the reds, and 4NT followed by 5D as 5-5 in the reds.

[gnasher]

Isn't the original question really just a matter of what "fairly standard" means? If double is for takeout, or covers a range of hands that includes a takeout double, then it's is completely obvious to do that, and 4NT deserves about -5.

Equally, if double is either for penalties or strong balanced, it would be ridiculous to double. In that style, it's probably fairly close between pass and 4NT.

[effervesce]

Dbl in my partnership.

[awm]

Here is the actual hand. It comes with a funny story.

Scoring: IMP

---

At our table, north opened 4♠ and east doubled. This was passed back to north. As you can see, 4♠X makes fairly easily. But north decided it was time to get greedy (maybe he wasn't doing too well in this IMP pairs event). He redoubled. East now decided that maybe defending 4♠XX wasn't the best idea and bid 4NT. West pulled to 5♣, and north now bid 5♠. Everyone passed.

As you can see, 5♠ can be defeated. But we didn't manage it. Lose 0.8 imps for a fairly average board. We won the tournament anyway.

[awm]

I think there are two very reasonable ways to treat double in these auctions:

(1) Double is for takeout. It's typically a three-suited hand type with at least opening values. Partner should usually remove this double, but can leave it in with good defense or with a flat hand that just doesn't offer a realistic chance of making anything at the five-level opposite a typical 1444 opening bid.

(2) Double is general values. It's typically a strong notrump or better in strength. Partner should usually pass this double, but is welcome to bid on if holding a six-card suit or five-five in two suits.

There is also the unreasonable "absolutely penalty" treatment where it just promises the ability to beat 4♠ without any guarantees about shape or general values.

I've noticed that a lot of people seem to double with both hand type (1) and (2) and then blame partner when the "wrong" action is taken. I'm very unconvinced by this treatment. I see an awful lot of times that advancer has some moderate balanced hand (say a 2335 7-count) where bidding is much better opposite (1) and passing is much better opposite (2).

In any case, the actual hand is more of a funny story than anything else.

[han]

I think that the double by east and the pass by west are both normal. Don't really see alternatives.

[skjaeran]

han, on Aug 31 2008, 02:27 AM, said:

I think that the double by east and the pass by west are both normal. Don't really see alternatives.

Agree.

[OleBerg]

skaeran, on Aug 31 2008, 09:52 AM, said:

han, on Aug 31 2008, 02:27 AM, said:

I think that the double by east and the pass by west are both normal. Don't really see alternatives.

Agree.

How about taking out the take-out double? Theres a reason for its name.

Of course if it is a values-double, you'd have to pass.

[Apollo81]

Agree that this is a normal double. IMO pass has more merit than it has been assigned by this discussion, and 4NT has less...

[xcurt]

awm, on Aug 30 2008, 06:50 PM, said:

Here is the actual hand. It comes with a funny story.

Scoring: IMP

---

As you can see, 5♠ can be defeated.

I didn't GIB this, but I don't think you can beat 5♠.

Assume a high heart lead (forced else declarer just sets up the diamond suit, east cannot profitably unblock). Declarer wins, ruffs a heart, and then runs 5 rounds of trumps leading to:

Scoring: IMP

---

Now a low diamond forces east to duck, whereupon declarer rounds up: heart ruff, diamond ace, diamond.

[benlessard]

I would X but pass is ok too. For me there is a significant strength difference needed to double 4S instead of 4H.

[nige1]

awm, on Aug 30 2008, 07:04 PM, said:

I think there are two very reasonable ways to treat double in these auctions:
(1) Double is for takeout. It's typically a three-suited hand type with at least opening values. Partner should usually remove this double, but can leave it in with good defense or with a flat hand that just doesn't offer a realistic chance of making anything at the five-level opposite a typical 1444 opening bid.
(2) Double is general values. It's typically a strong notrump or better in strength. Partner should usually pass this double, but is welcome to bid on if holding a six-card suit or five-five in two suits.
There is also the unreasonable "absolutely penalty" treatment where it just promises the ability to beat 4♠ without any guarantees about shape or general values.
I've noticed that a lot of people seem to double with both hand type (1) and (2) and then blame partner when the "wrong" action is taken. I'm very unconvinced by this treatment. I see an awful lot of times that advancer has some moderate balanced hand (say a 2335 7-count) where bidding is much better opposite (1) and passing is much better opposite (2).
In any case, the actual hand is more of a funny story than anything else.

At the four level and higher, beggars can't be choosers. Tim Rees, one of the most successful UK players, enigmatically quotes "Double shows the cards you hold". I take this to mean that double is "competitive" -- showing any strong hand without a trump stack; and partner will remove it only with shape. It seems that Justin shares a hymn-book with Tim.