[vang]

as someone who recently started to play Polish Club with one partner, i want to say that the big problem is not the alert or explanation of 1C opening or 1D response. those are quite easy. but there are lots of special sequences which are usually not explained. for example, the simple 1♣ - 1♠ - 2♥. i guess for most Polish players, this is "natural", it shows hearts. for someone used with SAYC or similar systems, it's quite strange, it shows 5 (FIVE) plus hearts, 18+ HCP and GF.

Polish Club is a good system and players serious about bridge will gain studying it a little bit. but otoh, Polish Club players should be aware of those sequences which are "natural" but very different in SAYC world and alert and explain properly.
:
one other example from my experience: 1♣ - 1M - 2♦ explained as "relay". insuficient. it's not "relay", it is (at very least) "ART GF, 18+HCP, 3+ fit in M, ask description".

[kenberg]

This time issue is of importance both at the table and away from the table in preparation.

Here in the US, I certainly encounter the big club, precision or otherwise. So I agree with my partner that X is for the majors, 1NT is for the minors (no doubt not optimal, but adequate). Moreover we agree that this is the case both directly over 1C and also over 1C-pass-1D.
We encounter the Polish Club less often, and so we have not agreed on our bids over 1C alerted as being something like: 12-14 balanced, 15-17 unbalanced, 18+ any shape. Even with somewhat regular partners, I would be unsure of the meaning of 1C-X after this alert. If I encounter the PC more often, we will take the time to decide.

I don't see this as a reason to ban the Polish Club in any tournament I play in. I either will or will not work out how I want to handle it with my partner, our choice. But I can see that some directors, for some tournaments, might want to ban this and other approaches that may discourage some casual players, and I favor letting them do so.

[ASkolnick]

I happen to like playing against pairs who play a polish club. Because as much as there may be theoretical advantages to uninterrupted auctions, I noticed that for many pairs, if you play a slightly off-kiltered overcall structure (we play xfers at the one level, suction two and above), many pairs do not know what to do.

But I always think that the real problem is the ACBL's opinion to ban as many conventions as necessary. But the only way to get exposed to these conventions/systems is by allowing people to play against them.

[mycroft]

Ken, what do you do over a 1C Alerted as something like 12-14 balanced, 18-19 balanced, or unbalanced 11-21 without 5M unless they're 5-6 or better, or unbalanced 11-21 without 4D unless 4-5 or better (and if 4=5, it's 16-21)? Very likely your system over that will work over a Polish Club just fine - at least on 95% of the hands; the rest are going to be opened 2C by the rest of your opponents, or 1M-with-a-max, where defending normally against PC [edit]is going to do better than against natural, and also better than against the strong elements of the "could be short" standard 1C[end edit]. You can do more, but you don't have to.

OTOH, you have pointed out the main problem, and it's exascerbated by minimum disclosure issues, either because of lack of English facility or "everybody plays it this way" or whatever; have an agreement, even if it's suboptimal; that way you don't get 1C-X disasters (or 1C-1H disasters attempting to avoid 1C-X disasters).

I agree, 1C-1H; 2D, 1C-1S; 2H, 1C-1D; 1H and the like are more difficult to deal with the explanations of. But 1C Polish itself, except for being forcing (and when was the last time 1C was passed in standard?) is not really all that much more amorphous than the "could be short" 1C.

[edit: I realized that that sentence didn't say what I wanted it to say. So I made it clearer.]

[kenberg]

Mycroft,
There are two related but separate issues:

I) What is thew best way to play against opponents who use the Polish Club?
II) When playing on BBO, what can I make of my partner's bids, or what should my partner make of my bids, when we encounter the Polish Club?

We could do an instant poll of BBO players, perhaps, to see how many have discussed the defense to the Polish Club with their pard du jour, but I can venture a likely guess, as no doubt you can.

The poster poses the question why do people dislike the PC. I can well imagine II has something to do with it. Quite possibly the frequent opening of 1C makes transfer overcalls more effective (as Askolnick indicates). I might like to try this defense. But I can't see myself chatting online with a potential partner about this when there are so many more basic issues that are usually unsettled.

The above is not a reason to ban the Polish Club. But people are allowed to like or dislike as they choose, and I can imagine that the above has something to do with the dislike. Myself, I would welcome playing against it especially if it were frequent enough to make thinking through a defense time effective. I may be retired but my available time is still not infinite.

Ken

[Gerben42]

I really like playing against and with Polish players. Because of the WJ2005 system, there is very little need for discussion as everyone is on the same page. With American, Dutch or German players for example, I would have to discuss an awful lot to avoid misunderstandings on all but the simplest of sequences.

Second, the level of card play in Poland is incredibly high compared to most places. Many have told me that if you play in Germany and make an extra trick on a squeeze, even in quite large tournaments, you are bound for an 80% score or so. In Poland, you'd be getting 55%...

Quote

  I happen to like playing against pairs who play a polish club. Because as much as there may be theoretical advantages to uninterrupted auctions, I noticed that for many pairs, if you play a slightly off-kiltered overcall structure (we play xfers at the one level, suction two and above), many pairs do not know what to do.

This is the same anywhere, although I think in Poland they know MORE what to do than somewhere else.

[mycroft]

Ken, if you're playing with pickup, I agree completely. However, it's the same when you play against my Precision Club/Nebulous Diamond/Kamikaze NT system; or against my 4-suit "any" weak 2s, playing EHAA; or my weak NT. I don't think there's a "default" agreement you can use playing pickup, and when it happens you won't know what partner thinks; which is why I want a "looking for a pair" marker for BBO - I don't think it's fair to play the systems I play against a pair of pickups.

But there's a difference between "there's a great possibility of misunderstanding if we get a PC auction without warning" and "1 Polish Club is *so* different from 1 Majors5-Diamonds4 Club that the defence I use against the latter is insufficient [mdf: not inefficient] for the former".

Sure, there's a better defence to PC than what you play over the M5,D4 club. There's very likely a better defence to M5, D4 club than what you play over it (or what you play over M5, D4-unless-4432 C or even Acol "could be 3" club.) That doesn't really matter unless you're up against the WBF in Shanghai, and you suddenly find that opening an 18-count in the shortest suit is "natural" but 1C on the "okay, 5% of the time it's strong, and may not even have 2 clubs" is not.

I don't like defending against 1C-1D; 1H "natural" - "so, which of the many hands can bid it? is it the weak NT? could it be a x4x5 15 count? Could it be strong? I don't care if it's 15-way, but tell me what you know about it, assuming I know as little about it as you know about my 1C-1D; 1H auction." For Gerben, it doesn't matter, because he knows WJ. But I don't. And that takes us full circle, doesn't it?

[ASkolnick]

Here is also why you should allow it anyway:

The only way to develop systems/defenses to it, is by letting it be played. Once people get more exposed to the idea, the easier it will become to defend it. I am sure when stayman first came out, people probably thought it should be banned. But now that there is exposure to it, you can play double shows cards, double shows clubs or whatever your favorite treatment is.

The problem with BBO would be what is standard in the US, may not be standard all over the world. So, why should we not be able to expose ourselves to something different, so the next time we play it, we can say...

"Oh, they played the Hooti-Nani diamond, showing odd amount of points. Its a good idea to jam up there auction since they have trouble getting the shape out over interference." Sure, you may get bad boards the 1st or 2nd time you play it, but once you experience things you will be a lot more comfortable playing against it.

It took me a while to figure out a good defense against a Weak NT, but eventually we did because we were able to play against enough Weak NT's.

[Cascade]

Walddk, on Aug 29 2008, 10:40 AM, said:

Not many Poles do, or if they do, it's not adequate when it comes to explaining certain bids in detail.

I disagree with the last part of this statement.

Very little English is required to explain e.g.

12-14 BAL or 15-17 ♣ or 18+ (or whatever fits the bid)

requires very little English.

Even BAL could be removed and replaced with 4-3-3-3, 4-4-3-2, 5-3-3-2 and the "or"s replaced by commas or semi-colons.

The player knows that an explanation or alert is required they should be able to write one even with very little English.

Even if Polish 1♣ is not alertable in Poland it is the sort of thing that I would alert online. I alert far more online that what is required by the NZ Bridge or any other alerting regulations.

Having said all of this I don't believe the Poles are any worse than anyone else at alerting.

When I am directing every time a 4=4=3=2 hand comes up I can be sure to get calls from tables where natural players who have opened a short 1♣. Of course this just points to all of the other times when they open 1♣ and don't alert but noone notices because they happen to have more than two clubs.

My experience as a player is that it is often more difficult getting information (inferences and style issues) from the natural players than it is from those who play more complex or artificial systems. Even that though is far from universal - I can think of an example of a pair that I play against relatively regularly who play an unusual system from whom it is very hard to get complete answers.

Perhaps the less experienced Polish club players who are used to not alerting 1♣ just need some education that online this bid needs alerting.

[Gerben42]

Quote

My experience as a player is that it is often more difficult getting information (inferences and style issues) from the natural players than it is from those who play more complex or artificial systems.

From an other part of the world, I can confirm this statement.

[kenberg]

mycroft, on Sep 8 2008, 02:31 PM, said:

Ken, if you're playing with pickup, I agree completely. However, it's the same when you play against my Precision Club/Nebulous Diamond/Kamikaze NT system; or against my 4-suit "any" weak 2s, playing EHAA; or my weak NT. I don't think there's a "default" agreement you can use playing pickup, and when it happens you won't know what partner thinks; which is why I want a "looking for a pair" marker for BBO - I don't think it's fair to play the systems I play against a pair of pickups.

But there's a difference between "there's a great possibility of misunderstanding if we get a PC auction without warning" and "1 Polish Club is *so* different from 1 Majors5-Diamonds4 Club that the defence I use against the latter is insufficient [mdf: not inefficient] for the former".

Sure, there's a better defence to PC than what you play over the M5,D4 club. There's very likely a better defence to M5, D4 club than what you play over it (or what you play over M5, D4-unless-4432 C or even Acol "could be 3" club.) That doesn't really matter unless you're up against the WBF in Shanghai, and you suddenly find that opening an 18-count in the shortest suit is "natural" but 1C on the "okay, 5% of the time it's strong, and may not even have 2 clubs" is not.

I don't like defending against 1C-1D; 1H "natural" - "so, which of the many hands can bid it? is it the weak NT? could it be a x4x5 15 count? Could it be strong? I don't care if it's 15-way, but tell me what you know about it, assuming I know as little about it as you know about my 1C-1D; 1H auction." For Gerben, it doesn't matter, because he knows WJ. But I don't. And that takes us full circle, doesn't it?

I pretty much agree with all of this.♠

[NickRW]

RichMor, on Aug 29 2008, 08:30 PM, said:

Yes. If we could send the BBO Forum in a time machine back to the 1980s and change 'Polish Club' to 'Precision Club' then the discussion would be about the same....<snip>

That still happens - and you don't have to be playing a different basic system either. I play what is essentially Acol in Acol land - but with quite a lot of gadgets that are not common - a few (not all by a long way) people clearly get upset/confused and wish we would go away - it is mainly older people - and add in a few rather middle class, not so old ladies.

Nick