[uday]

Moved to the watercooler, since this thread seems like it might devolve into something unsuitable for tender ears.

We don't take much of a position on this stuff. If you think your opps might need an alert, alert. Or don't. Just be nice about it TDs are free to override the first part of these rules in their own events.

In ACBL tourneys we (BBO) have to follow ACBL rules.

Of course, we might want to avoid the tone conveyed by terms like "litle buggers" or even threads that appear to bash people from specific countries. Or not. Just be nice about it. pls.

Uday

[hrothgar]

I doubt that this can be attributed to any one root cause. There looks to be plenty of blame to go around. However, here's a few (vaguely related) thoughts:

1. Language issues are an obvious problem. Most of the Poles that I've meet speak two - three different "foreign" languages. However, English isn't always one of them (Russian, German, and French seem to be the most combine). There is an expectational that English serves as the lingua franca for bridge. However, this expectation often clashes with reality.

2. I suspect that a lot of folks believe that whatever alert standards that they are used to locally apply all over the world. This creates a lot of trouble when Poles are playing in ACBL tournaments. I suspect that the converse holds true as well.

3. The core of Polish Club is completely legal at the GCC level. However, some of the most popular adjuncts like the Wilkosz 2♦ opening (alternatively, the multi 2♦ opening and the Polish scissors) are banned at the GCC level. Many directors have no interest in understanding what is/is not legal. They just want to "play bridge", so they ban anything they don't understand.

4. I think that there is a fair amount of Xenophobia / not invented here at work. Many Americans seem to love to wallow in their ignorance. If anything, 911, "Old Europe", and "Freedom Fries" seem to have made this worse. The very name "Polish Club" states that this is different/foreign. It becomes an obvious target for the petty and the close-minded

5. In the past, some of the Poles playing at the top levels had a reputation for providing less than adequate disclosure. I think that this has prejudiced the feeling of a number of pros regarding Poles in general, Polish club, and the like. ***** tends to flow down hill. Some of these same talking points have been internalized even at local levels.


This looks like a reasonable starting point...

[kenberg]

PC, Multi, Wilcosz etc. My thoughts, only vaguely formed:

In theory, I enjoy the challenge. In practice, it often devolves into "yeah, whatever". I play a few hands against opponents who I don't know, will likely never see again, and I am playing with a partner I may not know all that well. At best maybe I know the meaning of double if I open 1N, lho calls 2C (DONT) and he doubles. Often I have no idea. So clearly we have not prepared a defense for, say, the Multi. Or for the Polish Club.

I would love to see a page on BBO suggesting
The BBO understanding of the Polish Club
Suggested ways for modifying your defensive bidding if the opponents are playing PC
Some inferences one might take about holdings when a PC auction is heard (if they open 1C, and if they open 1H, etc).
Similar matters on the Multi, Wilcosz, whatever.

There could be basics, and extensions. For example, I use option 1 of the ACBL defense against the Multi with one partner. It's not rocket science, but it's adequate for starters. At least there is some agreement. Often the problem in playing against artificial systems is not so much that you don't know what their bids mean (perhaps they will tell you) but rather that you do not know what your own bids mean: 2D(Multi)-X -pass -? Good luck.

I would read the articles suggested above and I would seek partners who have read them.

[Aberlour10]

I belong to the small group of polish players who don't play Polish Club anyway, but I play very often vs polish WJ-pairs as well in polish tournaments as in MBC, many of these pairs use CC's, very many are able to explain their bids in the special "alert language" ( english is not obligate for doing it right) From my observations the main reason for this dislike is...: "I dont want to touch something that I do not know...and that I'm not able to handle"... just my 2 cents...

Robert

[sceptic]

I think it is because people have no idea how to play against it, also, I don't understand why there is not a ban by the same people on precision for the same reason

[jtfanclub]

Rossoneri, on Aug 29 2008, 12:03 AM, said:

From my experiences as a TD on BBO, I have had very few cases of MI, and I do allow Polish Club in my tourneys. From my impression, Polish players are about average when it comes to not alerting bids, so I think it would be unfair to say that they don't alert their bids properly.

jtfanclub said:

In BBO, as far as I can tell, it's because we can't get the little buggers to alert. It's not alertable in Poland, and they don't alert it on BBO.

This wouldn't be so bad, but virtually all of them have "SAYC or WJ200x" on their profile, and they don't have a convention card. So they open a club (not alerted), and later it turns out they had a doubleton club, so the director gets called, and there's lots of grief. Off hand, I can't remember any case where there was obvious damage from the club opening being a doubleton, but wow do people scream about it.

jtfanclub said:

Should I post a link where I say that I don't even think most of PC should be alertable, as long as they announce their system?

It's actually the whining I can't stand. Well, that and the rule that after the MI I have to find the best result for the opponents that's at all likely based on their skill levels. Bleah.

I find the usage of "little buggers" in the first quote contradictory to the second quote, but either way it seems to me you should probably quit directing.

By little buggers I meant players in general, not specific to Poles. It comes from the idea that free tourneys often end up looking like Romper Room antics, eg. "He called me a doody-head!", "She's taking too long!". I would not have guessed that people would think I was being specific to Poles.

So I certainly apologize to any Poles out there. Especially short ones.

[RichMor]

sceptic, on Aug 29 2008, 01:37 PM, said:

I think it is because people have no idea how to play against it, also, I don't understand why there is not a ban by the same people on precision for the same reason

Yes. If we could send the BBO Forum in a time machine back to the 1980s and change 'Polish Club' to 'Precision Club' then the discussion would be about the same.

Back then I was one of the young punks(less than 50 years old) playing that funny Precision system(not what Mr Goren taught us to play)

We alerted and explained everything that had any specific systemic meaning. The LOLs still acted like we were doing 'something funny' to them.

One auction was something like this:
1♣ - (1♠) - Dbl - (P)
P- (P)

The opening bid was alerted and explained as 16+ HCP, forcing for one round, and showing nothing about Clubs or any other suit. The Double was alerted and explained as for takeout showing 5 to 7 HCP and balanced distribution.

The overcall was just a little 'lead director' on Qxxx or something and the final number was 800 or something.

The overcaller looked shocked and said something like 'but he opened 1♣ when he had Spades'.

So it goes.

[matmat]

[quote name='jtfanclub' date='Aug 29 2008, 03:25 PM'] I find the usage of "little buggers" in the first quote contradictory to the second quote, but either way it seems to me you should probably quit directing. [/QUOTE]
By little buggers I meant players in general, not specific to Poles. [/quote]
so is that the kind of respect you have for the players you direct? maybe the poster above was right that you should quit directing. between this and the apparent yearning for gratitude you have...

[jtfanclub]

matmat, on Aug 29 2008, 03:32 PM, said:

so is that the kind of respect you have for the players you direct? maybe the poster above was right that you should quit directing. between this and the apparent yearning for gratitude you have...

Well, thank you matmat. Your opinion means so much to me. Especially when it's combined with a psychoanalysis. That makes it worth at least twice as much.

It is tiring and annoying to direct free tournaments, and I will probably stop soon. The only reason I do it is because of a sense of obligation: if I simply played in free tournaments, and didn't direct or otherwise help with them, I'd feel like a leech. Since I'm just paying off a debt, I don't expect any gratitude. I just don't appreciate the ***** that certain people seem to want to pile on us.

And yes, to make it clear: I do consider myself to be a combination of referee and baby sitter when I run a free tourney. It's my job not just to handle the rules of the game, but to keep the fighting and crying to a minimum. I don't think of face to face games the same way because, well, people don't generally act like children in face to face games. For some reason, a number of people seem to feel that it's OK to act like spoiled brats just because they're online.

Don't like it? Don't play in my tournaments. Better still, run your own scheduled tournaments so you can talk about how much more wonderful they are when you run them.

[sceptic]

Quote

Don't like it? Don't play in my tournaments. Better still, run your own scheduled tournaments so you can talk about how much more wonderful they are when you run them.

That won't happen, most of the perfectionists here are armchair critics. try and understand a lot of the posters here have different ideals from normal people, some of them can't be with out a cell phone for more than 2 seconds and cant get home from tournaments without daddys help and some of them could not direct a tourney online if they tried, they just think they can and they just like putting other people down, to make themselves look good in front of thier friends

[matmat]

sceptic, on Aug 29 2008, 04:26 PM, said:

Quote

Don't like it? Don't play in my tournaments. Better still, run your own scheduled tournaments so you can talk about how much more wonderful they are when you run them.

That won't happen, most of the perfectionists here are armchair critics. try and understand a lot of the posters here have different ideals from normal people, some of them can't be with out a cell phone for more than 2 seconds and cant get home from tournaments without daddys help and some of them could not direct a tourney online if they tried, they just think they can and they just like putting other people down, to make themselves look good in front of thier friends

the cell phone thing again?

lol
just because your life appears to be so boring and stationary and you don't need a cellphone doesn't mean that others' lives are that way. use some imagination sceptic, at least *try* to understand why the others are saying what they are.

I am not sure I could run an online tourney. I certainly wouldn't volunteer and I don't feel an obligation to do it either.
If the only outcome of somene's voluntary TDing is bitching, moaning and complaining about the little bugger ingrates, why are they doing it at all? In fact, if the players knew how condescending their TD is in reality, would they still want to play that tournament?

[sceptic]

actually mat, I doubt we appear much different to each other, we are quite similar in a way, sad as it may seem

Quote

In fact, if the players knew how condescending their TD is in reality, would they still want to play that tournament?

and this is really a very shity thing to say, you are showing lack of respect for a lot of people, something you really should try and look in a mirror and try and realise

[matmat]

sceptic, on Aug 29 2008, 04:40 PM, said:

actually mat, I doubt we appear much different to each other, we are quite similar in a way, sad as it may seem

Quote

In fact, if the players knew how condescending their TD is in reality, would they still want to play that tournament?

and this is really a very shity thing to say, you are showing lack of respect for a lot of people, something you really should try and look in a mirror and try and realise

I don't pretend to have respect for them in the first place. If I think someone is being a moron, I tell them.

[sceptic]

as I said we are quite similar

[mycroft]

The Poles use WBF-style cards in national events, and they card their systems according to the WBF colour scheme - except that a system that is natural except for a multi-meaning, natural-or-strong, FORCING 1C opener is GREEN in Poland (and RED in WBF events).

They have sent WBF CCs for 20 years saying they're playing a GREEN system that ends up being Polish Club. Reasonably, but incorrectly, and given that there is a history - and that one looks at the several pages of system notes the "standard" Americans and Canadians tend to give, and see the absolute minimum notes given by the Poles, even now - the charges of "*this* is what you think is full disclosure?" tend to stick.

Please note that there's a number of club level players in the U.S. who Just Don't Get It either, when they're the outsider - just try to get an explanation of a "standard M5, D4" 1C (if you're a Pole, for instance), or the "everybody knows that" inferences in 1D-1S; 1NT-2C; 2S auctions. I even had one earlier this month where I wanted to know a) whether it was a Lebensohl auction and if so, b) what suit was the Lebensohl trigger and c) what did the "fast" 3NT mean about that suit after 1NT-2C (Brozel, C + H)-3NT-AP? "But you're going to see it in a minute, and you're not even on lead, why is it important?" So chalk it up to "Never Left Home" syndrome, not just to whether the home is Łódź or Des Moines.

Addendum: just checked the cards for Beijing. As an example, see http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files...-FOURCAUDOT.pdf or http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files...ell-freeman.pdf, and then http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files...land/Poland.zip . Gierulski-Skrzypczak looks actually good and useful (and RED), although it would probably be better with some of the long followups as supplementary notes; but Jassem-Martens? Guys, you've only been hearing these complaints at world-championship level for 20 years; you could spend a couple of hours at least TRYING to avoid them? I won't gripe about their NV card being marked RED when it's simply BLUE; their system overall is RED, so they're arguably, and likely even unarguably, correct. Oh, and the third pair is playing a two-under-transfer opening system, reasonably (at first glance) well explained; but they call it BLUE. 11+, 4+Hearts is not the definition of a Strong Club in anybody's book (but theirs?), and 10 seconds reading the WBF systems policy would have shown them it's a RED system. Why doesn't the PZBS tell the coach/NPC to spend a couple of hours vetting the cards to at least make sure they're not trivially wrong?

Conversely, why doesn't the WBF tell the NBOs that cards that come in with this kind of trivial failures to adhere to the system policy will be rejected out of hand, and those players will not be given accreditation until a card with some minimum adherence to full disclosure has been submitted and the other teams given two weeks to study it?

This post has been edited by mycroft: 2008-August-29, 16:16

[matmat]

mycroft, on Aug 29 2008, 05:10 PM, said:

The Poles use WBF-style cards in national events, and they card their systems according to the WBF colour scheme - except that a system that is natural except for a multi-meaning, natural-or-strong, FORCING 1C opener is GREEN in Poland (and RED in WBF events).

They have sent WBF CCs for 20 years saying they're playing a GREEN system that ends up being Polish Club. Reasonably, but incorrectly, and given that there is a history - and that one looks at the several pages of system notes the "standard" Americans and Canadians tend to give, and see the absolute minimum notes given by the Poles, even now - the charges of "*this* is what you think is full disclosure?" tend to stick.

Please note that there's a number of club level players in the U.S. who Just Don't Get It either, when they're the outsider - just try to get an explanation of a "standard M5, D4" 1C (if you're a Pole, for instance), or the "everybody knows that" inferences in 1D-1S; 1NT-2C; 2S auctions. I even had one earlier this month where I wanted to know a) whether it was a Lebensohl auction and if so, what suit was the Lebensohl trigger and c) what did the "fast" 3NT mean about that suit after 1NT-2C (Brozel, C + H)-3NT-AP? "But you're going to see it in a minute, and you're not even on lead, why is it important?" So chalk it up to "Never Left Home" syndrome, not just to whether the home is Łódź or Des Moines.

Addendum: just checked the cards for Beijing. As an example, see http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files...-FOURCAUDOT.pdf or http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files...ell-freeman.pdf, and then http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files...land/Poland.zip . Gierulski-Skrzypczak looks actually good and useful (and RED), although it would probably be better with some of the long followups as supplementary notes; but Jassem-Martens? Guys, you've only been hearing these complaints at world-championship level for 20 years; you could spend a couple of hours at least TRYING to avoid them? I won't gripe about their NV card being marked RED when it's simply BLUE; their system overall is RED, so they're arguably, and likely even unarguably, correct. Oh, and the third pair is playing a two-under-transfer opening system, reasonably (at first glance) well explained; but they call it BLUE. 11+, 4+Hearts is not the definition of a Strong Club in anybody's book (but theirs?), and 10 seconds reading the WBF systems policy would have shown them it's a RED system. Why doesn't the PZBS tell the coach/NPC to spend a couple of hours vetting the cards to at least make sure they're not trivially wrong?

Conversely, why doesn't the WBF tell the NBOs that cards that come in with this kind of trivial failures to adhere to the system policy will be rejected out of hand, and those players will not be given accreditation until a card with some minimum adherence to full disclosure has been submitted and the other teams given two weeks to study it?

maybe there shouldn't be so many colors?

i mean, with one partner i like to play indigo, with another taupe, and with a third sparkling orange.

System classification seems ridiculously too complicated.

[jtfanclub]

sceptic, on Aug 29 2008, 04:40 PM, said:

actually mat, I doubt we appear much different to each other, we are quite similar in a way, sad as it may seem

Quote

In fact, if the players knew how condescending their TD is in reality, would they still want to play that tournament?

and this is really a very shity thing to say, you are showing lack of respect for a lot of people, something you really should try and look in a mirror and try and realise

If all I did was direct, I suppose he might have a point.

But I play, in these very same tournaments, five times as often as I direct. And I'm fully aware that the people I'm directing will be directing me tomorrow. I am one of those little buggers, and I don't think of myself differently than I do others.

To put it another way, think of a pickup baseball game. One guy's gotta be the umpire. When it's my turn to be the ump, it's my job to boss people around, and if the pitcher wants to argue balls and strikes with me, I'll throw him out of the game. Tomorrow, he might be the ump, and I might be the pitcher, and if I whine, he'll toss me. It's not that we like being the umpire, it's that we like playing baseball with an ump, so somebody's got to do it.

I'm not patronizing to the players as individuals, because that would imply that I play favorites. To the tournament as a whole, well, I haven't heard any complaints yet. They know where I'm coming from, because they'll be where I'm coming from tomorrow.

[the hog]

sceptic, on Aug 30 2008, 04:40 AM, said:

actually mat, I doubt we appear much different to each other, we are quite similar in a way, sad as it may seem

Actually Wayne you are quite a lot different. Despite the fact that you call a spade a "spade", you have manners and intelligence - it is possible to hold an intelligent conversation with you. Furthermore you are not boorish.

[matmat]

The_Hog, on Aug 30 2008, 01:40 AM, said:

sceptic, on Aug 30 2008, 04:40 AM, said:

actually mat, I doubt we appear much different to each other, we are quite similar in a way, sad as it may seem

Actually Wayne you are quite a lot different. Despite the fact that you call a spade a "spade", you have manners and intelligence - it is possible to hold an intelligent conversation with you. Furthermore you are not boorish.

by intelligent conversation, you mean agree with you on every topic possible?

y'all crack me up.

[the hog]

"y'all crack me up." I suggest you use superglue on your cracks.