[jeffford76]

Partner and I disagreed about this one last night at the club.

[TylerE]

I'd expect it to be a 4 card suit with extras,possibly distribution, not points. The minimum 5/6♠ - 4♥ hands just bid 2♥ over 1NT.

On this auction i'd expect 6 or more good spades, 4 hearts, probably not all that great, and a decent hand. Not minimum, but not super strong either.

[pclayton]

It should be a three card fragment on the way to 3N, 4♥ or even 4♠. Pard doesn't deny 5 hearts for 2N.

[pclayton]

TylerE, on Aug 28 2008, 09:11 AM, said:

I'd expect it to be a 4 card suit with extras,possibly distribution, not points. The minimum 5/6♠ - 4♥ hands just bid 2♥ over 1NT.

On this auction i'd expect 6 or more good spades, 4 hearts, probably not all that great, and a decent hand. Not minimum, but not super strong either.

Its generally accepted now that all hands with 6♠ / 4♥ bid 2♥ over 1N.

2♠ all but denies 4♥.

[Lobowolf]

Game acceptance showing 3 hearts. Responder has invitational values; that being the case, he's been handcuffed by system from showing a 5-card suit if he has one -- an inital 2H would be game-forcing, and 3H over 2S would be to play. Since partner can't show his 5-card heart suits (with an invitational hand), to find a 5-3 fit, we have to show our 3-card heart suits.

[Lobowolf]

pclayton, on Aug 28 2008, 12:17 PM, said:

TylerE, on Aug 28 2008, 09:11 AM, said:

I'd expect it to be a 4 card suit with extras,possibly distribution, not points. The minimum 5/6♠ - 4♥ hands just bid 2♥ over 1NT.

On this auction i'd expect 6 or more good spades, 4 hearts, probably not all that great, and a decent hand. Not minimum, but not super strong either.

Its generally accepted now that all hands with 6♠ / 4♥ bid 2♥ over 1N.

2♠ all but denies 4♥.

And in general, when that wasn't the case, weaker 6-4's rebid the 6-card suit, immediately limiting the hand, while the hands that were a bit better were the ones that bid the 4-card suit second.

[fred]

The concept of bidding 3H here on a 3-card suit is a really bad idea in my view.

I am guessing that for every time you locate a 5-3 heart fit in this manner, there will be at least a couple of times in which the opponents get to Double 3H, the lack of a Double or the knowledge of 3 hearts in the dummy helps the opening leader resolve a close choice, or the responder's failure to bid 4H helps the defenders to count the hand.

Quote

Its generally accepted now that all hands with 6♠ / 4♥ bid 2♥ over 1N.

I don't buy this. Are you really suggesting that it is the % action to rebid 2H with a hand like:

KQJ10xx
Jxxx
Ax
x

?

IMO the notion of bidding 3H here with a 3-card suit in an example of a serious disconnect between theory and practice. IMO many good players (and even some great ones), when designing systems, become overly concerned about being able to "show everything" without giving proper consideration to the tactical price they pay in trying to do that (to say nothing of the memory/fatigue price they pay).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[kenrexford]

If by a three-card suit you mean a serious lopsided 6-4, I agree.

A very strong fragment might be OK.

A 7-4 is also possible.

[pclayton]

fred, on Aug 28 2008, 09:35 AM, said:

I don't buy this. Are you really suggesting that it is the % action to rebid 2H with a hand like:

KQJ10xx
Jxxx
Ax
x

?

IMO the notion of bidding 3H here with a 3-card suit in an example of a serious disconnect between theory and practice. (snip)

Sorry Fred, I have to disagree here.

I was actually going to suggest ♠AKQxxx ♥xxxx, but it might be even wrong to play spades here. KQJTxx is more compelling.

Playing 3♥ as 6 great spades and four bad hearts feels like a waste of a bid to me.

How else do you suggest getting to a 5-3 heart fit, which seems to be a much more common situation that a great 6-bad 4?

[Lobowolf]

pclayton, on Aug 28 2008, 12:58 PM, said:

How else do you suggest getting to a 5-3 heart fit, which seems to be a much more common situation that a great 6-bad 4?

1♠-3♥ to play;

1♠-1NT
2♠-3♥ invitational?



Not that you would, but you could.

[Stephen Tu]

He's suggesting not trying to find the 5-3 heart fit, just play 3nt, that you don't find enough making 4H when 3nt goes down to compensate for revealing more to the defense in 3nt.

[fred]

pclayton, on Aug 28 2008, 05:58 PM, said:

fred, on Aug 28 2008, 09:35 AM, said:

I don't buy this. Are you really suggesting that it is the % action to rebid 2H with a hand like:

KQJ10xx
Jxxx
Ax
x

?

IMO the notion of bidding 3H here with a 3-card suit in an example of a serious disconnect between theory and practice. (snip)

Sorry Fred, I have to disagree here.

I was actually going to suggest ♠AKQxxx ♥xxxx, but it might be even wrong to play spades here. KQJTxx is more compelling.

Playing 3♥ as 6 great spades and four bad hearts feels like a waste of a bid to me.

How else do you suggest getting to a 5-3 heart fit, which seems to be a much more common situation that a great 6-bad 4?

Phil,

I was not suggesting that my example hand should be bid spades, spades, hearts - just that it should be bid spades, spades (as opposed to spades, hearts). What you do next when partner happens to rebid 2NT is another issue.

To answer your question, I am suggesting that you do not worry about getting to a 5-3 heart fit when the auction starts this way because the IMPs you gain when you actually find a 5-3 fit will be less than the IMPs you lose when responder does not have 5 hearts.

This is one particular hole in 2/1 game force that can't be filled without the risk of falling into a deeper hole. I am suggesting that you just live with it.

Hopefully needless to say my assessment of the relative frequencies of various outcomes is based purely on my judgment and experience. It is entirely possible that a simulation would "prove" me wrong.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[jeffford76]

fred, on Aug 28 2008, 01:20 PM, said:

To answer your question, I am suggesting that you do not worry about getting to a 5-3 heart fit when the auction starts this way because the IMPs you gain when you actually find a 5-3 fit will be less than the IMPs you lose when responder does not have 5 hearts.

This is one particular hole in 2/1 game force that can't be filled without the risk of falling into a deeper hole. I am suggesting that you just live with it.

Does the same principle apply to 1S - 1NT - 2m - 2NT? I thought bidding a heart fragment here was standard and don't see why it would be different.

When considering gains for bidding the fragment I think you have to consider hands where it's right to play the 4-3, not just the 5-3.

[awm]

While certainly not standard, there might be some technical merit to treating 3♥ here as shortage. One could treat 1♠-1NT-2m-2NT-3♥ similarly. Several reasons for this:

(1) There is some danger that opponents double the suit named for the lead. If this suit is a fragment, it could easily be that our side's one control of the suit is in opener's hand and this lead is huge. But if the suit is shortness, declarer will hold any relevant cards for our side in the suit.

(2) Bidding a suit here rather than 3NT can help our side reach the best game. But if 3♥ shows "three hearts" then the only time it really helps is when responder has five hearts. How can we tell whether to play a moysian when we don't know opener's minor suit holdings? But showing shortness will very often help us choose a 6-1 or 6-2 spade fit over 3NT when it's right, and also allows us to find heart fits (including moysians) when opener has 63(13) shape and the singleton is opposite a weak holding via 1♠-1NT-2♠-2NT-3m!-3♥.

[fred]

jeffford76, on Aug 28 2008, 06:43 PM, said:

Does the same principle apply to 1S - 1NT - 2m - 2NT?  I thought bidding a heart fragment here was standard and don't see why it would be different.

Some of the same considerations apply, but this is definitely a different auction.

One big difference is that, in the sequence you present, opener has not really limited his hand with his 2m rebid - he could have as much as 18 HCP. Furthermore, responder could easily have 4-card support for opener's minor.

So not only is it still possible that 5m is a better contract than 3NT, it is not hard to construct layouts where 6m is close to laydown while 3NT has no play. In other words, the upside of showing a fragment here extends well beyond just finding a 5-3 heart fit.

Another difference in this auction is that, by bidding your fragment here, you make it very clear that there is 1 specific suit that you are concerned about for notrump purposes. The same is not true in the auction that was the original subject of this thread. So in this auction bidding a 3-card fragment is much more likely to put partner in a position to know when notrump is wrong.

All of that being said, I am not suggesting that you pattern out by bidding your fragment with every 53(14) game acceptance when the bidding goes this way. If, for example, you have a singleton honor and/or relatively weak long suits, there is more to be said for just bidding 3NT over 2NT.

As for the possibility you raise of playing in a 4-3 fit, sure that will happen from time to time, but my sense is that such combinations are sufficiently rare (in either auction) as to not be a deciding factor.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[paulg]

Interestingly I believe the Italians, including Versace/Lauria, tend to show 3-card heart suits in similar auctions (typically through Gazilli) and actually prioritise it over other distributions.

Paul

[skjaeran]

Another problem showing that playing transfers after 1♠-1NT is far superior to standard, as long as you've got some convention to cover the minimum ♠-♣ hands.

[mike777]

I do not know what all this 3h equals 3cards in hearts stuff is without discussion.

I assume 3h is 4card suit and I bid 4h If I got 4 otherwise I rebid natural. KISS.

[peachy]

Whatever 3H shows, it is accepting game invite. In my partnerships 1S-1NT-2S denies 4-card heart suit and promises 6 or more spades in minimum hand. With 6-4 in S and minor, the minor can by left unbid with minimum hands but never hearts. If there is such a thing as "never" in bridge, exceptions exist.