[Ant590]

Undiscussed, what does:

1NT - 2♦ - 2♥ - 2♠ mean for you with a pick up partner on BBO?

[pclayton]

Invitational with 4♠, 5♥.

[jtfanclub]

I'd take it as invitational, both majors.

I'd take 1NT-2♥-2♠-3♥ as GF, both majors.

[jillybean]

What Phil said

[helene_t]

If not playing Smolen it has to be forcing I think.

[HedyG]

assuming you do not play garbage stayman with a pickup partner what is the difference between the above bidding and 1NT-2cl -2d -2h?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

playing with a pickup partner I am reaching for my
gun, and load it, ... would take it as 5-5 and inv.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ewj]

I would play it as 5H, 4S, might only be invitational but I would never pass it...i.e. maybe invitational but forcing if that makes any sense, so you can stop in 3M.

If I didn't play 1NT-2C-2D-2M as NF and I think you should, then I'd play it as 5-4 invitational and play the transfer sequence as GF I suppose.

[cherdano]

helene_t, on Aug 27 2008, 11:52 AM, said:

If not playing Smolen it has to be forcing I think.

I guess nobody doesn't play Smolen anymore, otherwise we would know that 1N 2C 2D 3H shows 5 hearts with a game-forcing hand

[Stephen Tu]

In "Modern Bridge Conventions", not playing garbage stayman, Root & Pavlicek define 1nt-2c-2d-2h as 4-5 S/H inv, 1nt-2d-2h-2s as 5-5 S/H inv.

I don't think *every* U.S. beginner is taught garbage stayman, depends on the teacher and/or book(s), no?

[Infidel]

With all due respect, the sequence 1N-2d-2H-2S should show 5-5, NOT 5-4, whether or not one plays Smolen. With 5-4, Start with Stayman, then bid (or show) the 5-card suit, showing 4 of the other by implication. The transfer to H, followed by 2S, shows invitational values; transfer to spades, then bid H, shows GF.

With a live partner with whom I've been able to discuss such things, I really like 1N-2c-2d-3d to show 5-5 with invitational + strength, which then frees up both other sequences for silly things like splinter-showing.


Mike

[Stephen Tu]

As has been pointed out earlier in the thread, it depends on whether or not you play garbage Stayman, i.e. how you play 1nt-2c-2d-2h. A fairly large number of people like to play that as both majors weak, on the theory that this is both more common than 4-5 inv, and scores better than either passing out 1nt or transferring to a 5 cd major, sometimes finding a 5-2 fit instead of playing 4-4 in the other major.

If you are playing it as both majors weak, obviously you can't also use it as 4-5 inv, then have to use some other sequence to handle that.

[ArcLight]

cherdano, on Aug 27 2008, 05:26 PM, said:

helene_t, on Aug 27 2008, 11:52 AM, said:

If not playing Smolen it has to be forcing I think.

I guess nobody doesn't play Smolen anymore, otherwise we would know that 1N 2C 2D 3H shows 5 hearts with a game-forcing hand

>1N 2C 2D 3H shows 5 hearts

Playing Smolen as I know it, it would show a 4 card Spade suit and 5 hearts.

Playing Smolen you bid the 4 card suit, not the 5.

[matmat]

with a pickup this shows ♦ and ♠

[blackshoe]

Quote

There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays,
And every single one of them is right!

Rudyard Kipling, "In the Neolithic Age", Stanza 5

There are at least that many ways to construct a system of responses and rebids over 1NT, and pickup partner or not, if he makes this call when he has no clue how it will be interpreted, he's an idiot.

[helene_t]

cherdano, on Aug 27 2008, 11:26 PM, said:

helene_t, on Aug 27 2008, 11:52 AM, said:

If not playing Smolen it has to be forcing I think.

I guess nobody doesn't play Smolen anymore, otherwise we would know that 1N 2C 2D 3H shows 5 hearts with a game-forcing hand

Lol, you caught me Anyway, is this 2♠ really non-forcing in SAYC? I can see the rationale, it just never occurred to me.

[HedyG]

Jlall, on Aug 27 2008, 04:54 PM, said:

Every beginner in USA at least learns garbage stayman so I doubt any american would assume anything other than garbage stayman. Indeed, I don't have any idea what 2C then 2H is not playing garbage stayman because I never learned any other way.

for players not using garbage stayman (there are many of those) 1NT-2cl-2d-2h can show a 7-8 HCP hand with an inconvenience to playing in NT, such a singleton somewhere in a hand not strong enough to bid 3cl/d over 2 h and unable to bid 2NT because of the distribution. it is for instance commonly played this way in France where btw 1NT-2d-2h-2sp shows a weak 5 5 hand is nf

[SoTired]

Jlall, on Aug 27 2008, 04:54 PM, said:

Every beginner in USA at least learns garbage stayman so I doubt any american would assume anything other than garbage stayman. Indeed, I don't have any idea what 2C then 2H is not playing garbage stayman because I never learned any other way.

I think you are dead wrong that beginners are taught garbage stayman (1N 2C 2D 2H = weak 4+/4+ majors). I think that is an advanced bid. If you ask a normal B/I what "garbage stayman" is, you will likely get the answer that with a weak 4450, you bid stayman and pass opener's rebid.

The original Goren/Std American method of showing an invitational major 5-4 was 1N-2C-2D-2M where M is the 5-card major.
And 1N-2C-2D-3M was 5-4 GF. Smolen's change was to bid the 4-card major rather than the 5-card major.

Once you add true Garbage Stayman, then you need to replace the invitational 5h/4s sequence 1N-2C-2D-2H. Many players use 1N-2D-2H-2S for 5h/4s, but keep the 1N-2C-2D-2S for 5s/4h.

How are B/I's usually taught to show a major 5-5? Show a 5-4, then if opener returns to NT, insist on the 2nd 5-card major.

Some are taught that a 5-5 is shown by transfer and bid other major. Hearts then spades is invitational, spades then hearts is GF. Forgive most B/I for forgetting which is which, since it does not come up very often.

HOWEVER, once you get to the Advanced/Expert end of the player spectrum, the entire NT sequences diverge and there is no standard anymore.

[skjaeran]

With a pick-up I'd expect this sequence to show 4-5, but I'd not be sure whether it was exactly inv or inv+, unless my partner had Smolen on his/her profile.