[1eyedjack]

Sorry this is such a basic question. A new partner has asked me this question and I was amazed to find I was lost for a response.

In modern standard methods it seems that
1Suit-(X)-New suit = forcing
and also that
1Suit - (X) - (XX) = strong misfitting hand, looking to penalise opponents.

There seems to be some duplication of use here. Does anyone have a concise summary of when you would choose one over another?

Thanx

[paulg]

Redouble typically implies a desire to penalise the opponents wherever they land, so will be a hand with little fit for partner and relatively balanced in the other suits. A redouble generally shows 10+ points.

Suit bids tend to suggest 1-suited hands where you are more interested in finding your best fit rather than penalising the opposition. Although forcing it does not necessarily promise any more values than a normal response.

Both options are actually available when you have support for partner if you can see that you can control the auction, for example invitational balanced hands with 3-card support for partner's 1♥/1♠ opener often start with a redouble.

[slothy]

Dear Monocled Jack,

I was deeply surprised, nay shocked, to discover you were lost for words. Having kibbed you recently i can say, with some conviction, that it wont be long before you find them again....

From a subjective viewpoint, and part of Acol, i use the XX as suggested by cardsharp.

Suit bids are made (still FORCING although i know some schools who play it as non-forcing which i don't understand) where you are telling p that your hand is not suitable for a penalty as you lack any holding or length in a likely opponent fit and thus are trying to 'set the suit'.

Support bids are made and are limited. The objective mainly being to hobble opponents and indicate to partner that the contract, if you buy it, is in his suit.

If you have a strong/distributional hand and support and you have little idea where you want to settle, i play XX as waiting...see how opps bid to get a better idea of how points and shape are distributed around the table.

In this last respect, i take XX as primarily penalty-orientated. You feel that you have a hand where wherever they land they gonna fall into trouble. Either by a misfit or the fact you have the balance of points and a doubled contract going off is better than any game you may have, (or not even!) . Yet again, matter of judgement.

NB.

Now if you play with the Captain/Crew philosophy, a XX is an express demand to take on the role of Captain, even at the expense of appearing mutinous: to swing by the yard-arm and tell your opps that they have met their Trafalgar. Those of you unfamiliar with the Captain/Crew philosophy....well, you can always find out

[1eyedjack]

Thanks for the responses. They make sense, but putting my beginner's hat on I am not sure that a tighter definition cannot be found. In other words, we have identified the general principles, but is it possible to describe the hand types?

OK, XX shows 10+ and a suit bid may be less. So on less than 10 there is no duplication (although you may want to consider the distinction between bid and pass, but that is entirely separate question).

The question remains, on hands with 10+ when do you want to XX v bid?

If you have a suit, and 10+ points, you obviously have some interest in penalising that suit, should the opponents bid it (which they will not if you bid it first). If you have a shortage then you personally have no interest in penalising it but you don't know yet whether partner does. Perhaps with an extreme shortage you do not want to penalise (at least at low levels) whatever partner's holding in the suit.

Likewise, if you have a LONG suit, then the prospects of the opponents bidding it (if you delay bidding it yourself) are vanishingly small, and if the opponents pre-empt you in another suit you would feel uncomfortable if you have given up an earlier opportunity to show it.

So I am coming around to the view that XX should promise a balanced hand, or at least an ability to penalise at least 2 suits without more than (say) 5 cards in any.

Alternatively, here's a radical view:

In a separate thread on rgb there has been some discussion about the meaning of Pass in the auction
(1D)-X-(XX)-P?
I tend to play the pass as ignoring the redouble, to protect against a psychic redouble. The vast concensus appears in favour of Pass showing no preference, and just passing the buck back to doubler. If that is a universal treatment then I recommend use of XX to show a weak misfit. Partner (opener) is required to pass unless he is 2-suited with something genuine to show. This is safe because doubler is apparently required to pull the XX even if his partner (advancer) does not.

[slothy]

Dont forget Jack you can always PASS and X later!! Depending on the texture of your hand you may have the ability to X ONE SUIT and one suit alone.

IF they happen to bid it it is time for you to punish them for their insolence

Alex

[Flame]

First its good when there is some duplications, for example in a system i play there are many times where 1 bid is 11-16 and the next is 16-21, sometimes in bidding there is no right and wrong , more like style and partnership understanding.
The "normal" way to play is that a suit at the 1 level is forcing but at the 2 level its NF. there are more ways like trasfers, and others.
What you should diside is how much ytou will gain from showing what you got, and is it better then redouble and hoping to catch them. there is no simple one condition answer that can be given here.
The main thing to consider is how offensing/defensive and the vulnrabilty.
Maybe you should give a list of hands you arfent sure about and we'll answer.

[Flame]

I just read your second post.
lets say the bidding when 1d X
and i got 5 card major, yes i would be happy to double them in this major, but the chances that this where they will land are very low.
what you should consider is you overal offensive/defensive and also the simplicty of the bidding, i would always bid a 5 card major suit at the 1 level. with a minor suit which should be bid at the 2 level (lets say its forcing although i doubt many play that) i would bid any 6 card, with 5 card ill consider the suit coulity, if i have my Qs and Js in the suits ill bid it, if my Qs and Js are outside the suit i'll redouble.
for more offensive distribution with 5-5 there is no doubt i would bid any with 5-4 i will anmost anways bid unless the honor are really horiable.
If dont have the option to bid a minor at the 2 level and u have to go to the 3 level, i would bid a nice 6 card suit.

[1eyedjack]

slothy, on Apr 3 2004, 11:53 AM, said:

Dont forget Jack you can always PASS and X later!! Depending on the texture of your hand you may have the ability to X ONE SUIT and one suit alone.

IF they happen to bid it it is time for you to punish them for their insolence

Alex

I tend to play pass then X as take-out, simply BECAUSE if I had wanted to penalise I woudl have XX'ed. I am coming around to the view that it should be the other way around, if an initial XX should be just a random noise (which is recommended if doubler is required to pull his partner's pass)

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

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Hi 1eyedjack!

Spoiler

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I am happy to say you that you are really right thinking person! RDBL is duplication of 1/1 bids, because penalty double at 1, most time at 2 level is useless. Most science top pair in the world already play this rdbl (and some of dbl too) as transfers. Examples:
1♦ - (dbl) - rdbl: 4+♥
1♣ - 1♦ - dbl: 4+♥
.......................................

Spoiler

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Hope my post will answer to some of your thoughts, Misho

[Trpltrbl]

XX I play as balanced 10+ or any 1suited GF hand.
Bidding a suit I play as less then 10HCP and NON-forcing Contructive 6-9 HCP ( roughly), but I expect pd to bid with a fit. And my pd's do.

Mike

[aisha759]

To me, any bid after a X is non forcing.... the XX is the only bid which shows 10+ pts....

Short but sweet

Yours truly

Aisha

[paulg]

aisha759, on Apr 3 2004, 09:31 PM, said:

To me, any bid after a X is non forcing.... the XX is the only bid which shows 10+ pts....

Short but sweet

Aisha and Mike's method is popular and it is easy to remember which has a lot of merit. However many experts dislike this method as it invites competition and can lead to auctions like ...

1♦ - (Dble) - Rdble - (3♥)

and you now have to start showing your strong single suiter at the 3- or 4-level.

Personally I play Misho's methods, but these were pretty low down the priority list of partnership agreements!

Paul

[mishovnbg]

aisha759, on Apr 3 2004, 11:31 PM, said:

To me, any bid after a X is non forcing.... the XX is the only bid which shows 10+ pts....

Short but sweet

Yours truly

Aisha

Spoiler

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Hi Aisha!

Spoiler

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The disadvantages of your method are:

• 1. NF bids are ok with 1 suted hands but are bad with 2 suited - you can play on your worse fit, while in other one you can even miss game.
  
• 2. How many time opps allow you to play at 1 level? Against good players you almoust never can, except it is bad contract (1).
  
• 3. Using RDBL as only forcing bid is very vulnerable to preempts, how Paul already notice. But even opps didn't you lose tempo of describing your own hand, typical for natural systems and it mean after your RDBL you must continue bidding by relays, method that I suppose you don't use to play... Am I right?

Spoiler

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Misho

[aisha759]

HI Misho!

Yes, you are right, i don't use those relay methods, one reason is that i dont know them..... and after the XX many times opps have come in with a preemptive bid..
So i suppose i should move on to some more advanced form of bidding after the X...
Thanks

Aisha

[Rhutobello]

Hei what have happen to my twin Have she cut our bond....or have she found out that she had another father....or was it mother...what both?...what new suit or XX....i don't know....but I can give you all a smile

Have a nice day
Edvin

[Fluffy]

How I was teached to redouble and not to is this way:

with 10+ point and 2 suits different that the opened with 4+ cards redouble, normally it negates fit, but it sometimes is posible.

with 1 suited bid your suit regardless of your strenght.

I was taught as well that ther eis an exception: 4-3-3-3 10-12 (limit) where you are gonna PASS first and then bid 1NT on next round.

There is no duplication since you are bid your suit negates 4+ cards in another, unless you have fit.

Failing to do these can end in a disaster, here is a sad example I had to deal with years ago.

Scoring: MP

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The bidding went as I can remember....
1♠-(X)-2♥-(P)
2♠-(P)-3♦-(P)
3NT-(P)-4♦-(X)
5♣-X................

If first round west redoubles, north will bid 2♣ and south doubles, of course you won´t play it, but you will soon discover there is a great missfit and finish at a safer level.