[gnasher]

Scoring: IMP

Pass 1♣   Pass   1♠
Pass 1NT  Pass

---

You're not playing anything very sophisticated. You can check back for three-card support, or for four hearts, but you can't consult partner about the best strain. What would you do?

[pclayton]

If I check back and retreat to 3N over any answer I have given pard a choice of games.

Nothing fancy here, but its the only logical meaning of this sequence.

If I have used up my ration of bids and I can take only one call at this juncture it would be 3N.

[brianshark]

If I use check-back and pard responds in hearts or spades, and then I bid 3NT, won't he assume I was actually looking for support in the other Major?

I'm not going to do anything fancy... if pard shows me 3 card support, I'm playing in 4♠.

[pclayton]

brianshark, on Aug 19 2008, 07:24 AM, said:

If I use check-back and pard responds in hearts or spades, and then I bid 3NT, won't he assume I was actually looking for support in the other Major?

I'm not going to do anything fancy... if pard shows me 3 card support, I'm playing in 4♠.

1♣ - 1♠ - 1N - 2♦ - 2♥ - 3N. Why did I check back? Clearly I have 5 spades. Pard can choose. What I can't do is confirm a 5-3 fit AND let pard choose between 3N / 4♠.

1♣ - 1♠ - 1N - 2♦ - 2♠ - 3N. Why did I bid 3N? Because I had 4-4 in the majors? No, this hand bids 1♥, not 1♠. Therefore, this must be a COG.

[cherdano]

pclayton, on Aug 19 2008, 09:45 AM, said:

brianshark, on Aug 19 2008, 07:24 AM, said:

If I use check-back and pard responds in hearts or spades, and then I bid 3NT, won't he assume I was actually looking for support in the other Major?

I'm not going to do anything fancy... if pard shows me 3 card support, I'm playing in 4♠.

1♣ - 1♠ - 1N - 2♦ - 2♥ - 3N. Why did I check back? Clearly I have 5 spades. Pard can choose. What I can't do is confirm a 5-3 fit AND let pard choose between 3N / 4♠.

1♣ - 1♠ - 1N - 2♦ - 2♠ - 3N. Why did I bid 3N? Because I had 4-4 in the majors? No, this hand bids 1♥, not 1♠. Therefore, this must be a COG.

Why can't these sequences be hands with four or five clubs that would be interested in slam if partner answers 3♣ to the checkback?

[pclayton]

cherdano, on Aug 19 2008, 07:49 AM, said:

pclayton, on Aug 19 2008, 09:45 AM, said:

brianshark, on Aug 19 2008, 07:24 AM, said:

If I use check-back and pard responds in hearts or spades, and then I bid 3NT, won't he assume I was actually looking for support in the other Major?

I'm not going to do anything fancy... if pard shows me 3 card support, I'm playing in 4♠.

1♣ - 1♠ - 1N - 2♦ - 2♥ - 3N. Why did I check back? Clearly I have 5 spades. Pard can choose. What I can't do is confirm a 5-3 fit AND let pard choose between 3N / 4♠.

1♣ - 1♠ - 1N - 2♦ - 2♠ - 3N. Why did I bid 3N? Because I had 4-4 in the majors? No, this hand bids 1♥, not 1♠. Therefore, this must be a COG.

Why can't these sequences be hands with four or five clubs that would be interested in slam if partner answers 3♣ to the checkback?

How often does pard bid 3♣ over 2♦? Maybe 5%?

I think a responding hand fishing for a club slam tries 3♣ over 2M.

[cherdano]

Unless that hand is only interested in a club slam opposite 5 clubs?

[FrancesHinden]

gnasher, on Aug 19 2008, 04:01 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

Pass 1♣   Pass   1♠
Pass 1NT  Pass

---

You're not playing anything very sophisticated. You can check back for three-card support, or for four hearts, but you can't consult partner about the best strain. What would you do?

Assuming you are playing normal- (English-style) checkback methods, then because you responded a spade, checking back then bidding 3NT will always imply choice of games as pclayton said.

Anyway, I can't give an unbiased answer because I know the hand, but I had a conversation with my partner about this deal along the lines of

me: I think it's often right to play the 5-3 fit here
him: I think in the long run it's so close that it doesn't matter and I wouldn't get excited about it either way

(after we overheard a big telling off from the next table when the selected game went off with the other possible one making)

[jdonn]

Jlall, on Aug 19 2008, 10:47 AM, said:

looks like 3N given the conditions.

I've still had terrible luck my whole life doing this, so I'm gonna stay simple and check for a fit.

[gnasher]

FrancesHinden, on Aug 19 2008, 05:10 PM, said:

Assuming you are playing normal- (English-style) checkback methods, then because you responded a spade, checking back then bidding 3NT will always imply choice of games as pclayton said.

Apparently not that normal. As I understand it, neither my teammates nor the opposition at my table had that agreement.

[FrancesHinden]

gnasher, on Aug 19 2008, 05:23 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Aug 19 2008, 05:10 PM, said:

Assuming you are playing normal- (English-style) checkback methods, then because you responded a spade, checking back then bidding 3NT will always imply choice of games as pclayton said.

Apparently not that normal. As I understand it, neither my teammates nor the opposition at my table had that agreement.

It's not a specific agreement, it's a deduction.

'Normal' (English-style) checkback is that you bid 2c asking opener to bid 2H with 4 hearts, 2S with 3 spades and 2D with neither, with no other call possible.

As you cannot be 4-4 in the majors, if you checkback and then bid 3NT over the answer, you MUST have a 5-card major and have been interested in a fit. (At, least on the assumption that if you have a 4-4 heart fit you will always want to play in it).

Depending on what opener bids with 3-4 in the majors, you may think that ....2H - 3NT demands that opener pulls with 3-card spade support.

[jdonn]

pclayton, on Aug 19 2008, 10:54 AM, said:

cherdano, on Aug 19 2008, 07:49 AM, said:

pclayton, on Aug 19 2008, 09:45 AM, said:

brianshark, on Aug 19 2008, 07:24 AM, said:

If I use check-back and pard responds in hearts or spades, and then I bid 3NT, won't he assume I was actually looking for support in the other Major?

I'm not going to do anything fancy... if pard shows me 3 card support, I'm playing in 4♠.

1♣ - 1♠ - 1N - 2♦ - 2♥ - 3N. Why did I check back? Clearly I have 5 spades. Pard can choose. What I can't do is confirm a 5-3 fit AND let pard choose between 3N / 4♠.

1♣ - 1♠ - 1N - 2♦ - 2♠ - 3N. Why did I bid 3N? Because I had 4-4 in the majors? No, this hand bids 1♥, not 1♠. Therefore, this must be a COG.

Why can't these sequences be hands with four or five clubs that would be interested in slam if partner answers 3♣ to the checkback?

How often does pard bid 3♣ over 2♦? Maybe 5%?

I think a responding hand fishing for a club slam tries 3♣ over 2M.

Why not bid 2♣ then 3NT to offer partner a choice, and use 2♦ to give him no choice? I mean this specifically for you two who I know play 2 way.

[dburn]

pclayton, on Aug 19 2008, 10:08 AM, said:

If I have used up my ration of bids and I can take only one call at this juncture it would be 3N.

Could be right. But if I had only one bid, it would be 4♠ - when two suits (hearts and diamonds) are potential weak spots in 3NT, and when my spades can survive a bad break, I'd abandon my principle of playing all hands in 3NT.

Still, don't mind using checkback and bidding 3NT over 2♥. That way, it won't so obviously be my fault as it would be if I made the wrong unilateral decision now. For well it was said by the bard:

When the One Great Scorer comes
To write against your name,
He marks not if you won or lost,
But how you placed the blame.

[OleBerg]

jdonn, on Aug 19 2008, 06:20 PM, said:

Jlall, on Aug 19 2008, 10:47 AM, said:

looks like 3N given the conditions.

I've still had terrible luck my whole life doing this, so I'm gonna stay simple and check for a fit.

If I can unearth a 5-3 fit and still suggest 3nt, I will. If not, I stay simple like jdonn.

[SoTired]

wait a minute... you ask partner for 3-card support and then ignore it and bid 3N? Not Me. KISS. If I ask for 3-card support and get a positive answer, I bid 4S.

I agree with JDonn. That analysis that shows it is 50-50 that a 5-3 fit or 3N is better is for everybody else. For me, it is 90% that 4S makes more tricks on a 5-3 fit when I bid 3N.

[cherdano]

jdonn, on Aug 19 2008, 10:40 AM, said:

Why not bid 2♣ then 3NT to offer partner a choice, and use 2♦ to give him no choice? I mean this specifically for you two who I know play 2 way.

I play that, but I thought we were discussing what to expect when "you aren't playing anything very sophisticated, checkback ...".
If I had a game forcing checkback with no further discussion I would just bid checkback, 2S over 2H, then 3N next, or 3S over 2S and pass 3N. (That's assuming I am not playing with Rexford, of course.)