[jdonn]

1♦ 1♠ 1NT P
P 2♣ P P
DBL

What does the double mean, as best you can describe it?

[ArcLight]

I assume penalty.

LHO probably has 5+ spades, aprd should have a few. Chances are you aren't looking at many spades and RHO didn't raise them.
Its unlikley you have spade and club shortness, else you might bid hearts.

Probably all the experts do the oppsoite, what do I know

[mikeh]

Maximum pass of 1N, with something like 3=2=4=4 shape. Penalty oriented, altho I'd be worried about them running to hearts (rho running, obviously), so maybe 2=3=4=4?

Maybe this should be some 5332 max, with 3 clubs, willing to play 2♦ or to defend, depending on partner's hand, but I would assume the 4432 penalty interpretation absent discussion.

This is an exception to my usual rule about low level doubles being takeout, but I can't understand how this one could usefully be played as takeout.

Odd auction.

[crazy4hoop]

Not too sure but I would also guess a max pass with something like a minimum of 3 clubs to an honor. Partner can decide what to do with this information I guess.

[RichMor]

Takeout I think.

[kenrexford]

RichMor, on Aug 19 2008, 03:39 PM, said:

Takeout I think.

Same thought here. At least, takeout-ish shape. Maybe "cooperative." I'd expect something like 1453. Partner is free to convert this if he wants.

[mike777]

jdonn, on Aug 19 2008, 12:22 PM, said:

1♦ 1♠ 1NT P
P 2♣ P P
DBL

What does the double mean, as best you can describe it?

My best guess and only a guess would be something like:


x...Axxx..AQJxx...Axx

[brianshark]

In my opinion, it's a clear 100% penalty double, not t/o, not optional, not cooperative, not anything that makes pard think he can pull it... because:
- Loads of suits have been bid by us and them
- Pard has limited his hand
- Pard has denied support
- Pard has denied having the only unbid suit
- We have already denied significant extra values
- We already know there is nowhere we want pard to take it out to

[pclayton]

I assume if pard would have whacked 2♣ its penalty. Therefore, my double is penalty too.

This violates the meta-rule that all low-level doubles are takeout.

I think the double looks like ♠xx ♥Kxx ♦AKJx ♣QJxx.

[peachy]

Not a takeout double.

[CSGibson]

I disagree with pure penalty, primarily because the doubler is in front of the club bidder, with at most a 4 card suit. I would say that opener's most likely shapes on the auction is 3-4-4-2 or 2-4-5-2 with honor-doubleton in clubs, or 2-4-4-3 with honor 3rd in clubs, and a max for the previous bidding.

[mike777]

i guess I rejected all these 14+ hcp balanced/semibalanced hands........assume partner is 14-15 hcp unbalanced....stiff or void.....1=4=4=4 ok

[zende_ru]

I think this Dbl shows 5!D-4!H dist. weak hand
wants partner to correct !D or !H

[RichMor]

Two simple opinions:

1) As a general principle, low level doubles 'under' the bidder are takeout and doubles 'over' the bidder are penalty oriented. In this auction the doubler is 'under' the 2♣ bidder. So that suggests to me that this double should be takeout oriented but allow for a penalty Pass by the 1NT bidder.

2) Doubling the opps in a low level contract that they bid voluntarily(sp ?) means one of two things; you think they misbid or you think the cards are lying badly for their contract. If we assume the opps have not misbid then what type of hand could the 1♦ opener hold that suggests the cards are lying badly for a 2♣ contract? I suppose there are some but I think the hand types that suggest takeout are more likely.

[ArcLight]

1) As a general principle, low level doubles 'under' the bidder are takeout and doubles 'over' the bidder are penalty oriented.

In general, but not always.


2) Doubling the opps in a low level contract that they bid voluntarily(sp ?)

It was unilateral as opposed to a joint effort with agreement. These situations are where penalty doubles creep up, as opposed to 1♥ - pass - 2♥. That you will not get rich by doubling (in general)

[kenrexford]

So, the debate seems to surround a few core questions:

1. How many hearts do we expect Opener to have? Does this offer a plausible Moysian or not?
2. How many diamonds does Opener show? Is this promising five, or not?
3. How many clubs does Opener show? A fragment expected? Four pieces?
4. How many spades does Opener show? Supporting stack? Stiff?
5. What is the ODR? High ODR or high DOR?

[jdonn]

Since it won't impact the debate anyway, the story is I rebid 2♣ (bad overbid on my part) and got doubled and ultimately went for 800. I could have gotten out for 500 for sure and maybe even 200, but completely misplayed the hand since I thought the double was penalty but rho really had a good 3352 hand. It still seems to me like penalty is what it should be, but rho is a good player so I'm open.

Discuss.

[RichMor]

Assume 'a good 3352' wasn't good enough to open 1NT, good 14HCP maybe?
That seems like a reasonable reopening double.

What kind of hand would opener hold to:
1. open 1♦
2. pass partner's 1NT response
3. double a 2♣ balance for penalties
???