[Gerben42]

Mind-boggling why no one has started a thread on this yet.

There must be a million sides to this story, but as an outsider it worries me that Russia can simply roll its army into what has been a different country since 1990 or so, and no one does anything other than say: "We'd prefer that you wouldn't do that".

Is this what the future war-on-resources will look like?

Whoever's fault it is, the losers will be the people who happen to live there... Some things never change.

[mike777]

Yes, many sides....

Here in USA the big stories were an American Football player changing teams, and an American politician cheating on his wife.

Most Americans are not even sure if Georgia or South Ossetia is in Asia or Europe.
Is Europe/China/India/Turkey doing anything? You are alot closer and know the terrain and culture better than us.
Gerben, being much closer than us to the situation what do you recommend?

[helene_t]

mike777, on Aug 11 2008, 01:26 PM, said:

Most Americans are not even sure if Georgia or South Ossetia is in Asia or Europe.

I wouldn't be able to tell either. I suppose the Big Kaukasus is the most natural boarder so that they would be Asia.

Not sure if this has anything to do with resources. Times Online gives the impression that the Russians have a fair point.

[P_Marlowe]

helene_t, on Aug 11 2008, 07:39 AM, said:

mike777, on Aug 11 2008, 01:26 PM, said:

Most Americans are not even sure if Georgia or South Ossetia is in Asia or Europe.

I wouldn't be able to tell either. I suppose the Big Kaukasus is the most natural boarder so that they would be Asia.

http://en.wikipedia....orgia_(country)

I had to look as well, partially Europe / partially Asia.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hrothgar]

Gerben42, on Aug 11 2008, 03:07 PM, said:

Mind-boggling why no one has started a thread on this yet.

There must be a million sides to this story, but as an outsider it worries me that Russia can simply roll its army into what has been a different country since 1990 or so, and no one does anything other than say: "We'd prefer that you wouldn't do that".

Is this what the future war-on-resources will look like?

I think that the claim that "Russia rolled its army into what had been a different country since 1990" misrepresents whats going on.

Back in the 1990s Georgia seceded from the former Soviet Union. In turn, a couple of regions of Georgia – South Ossetia and Abkhazia - broke away from Georgia. In a not overly surprising move, the Russians backed these regions. De facto, they’ve been operating as independent for well over a decade.

Let’s move things forward to 2008. Mikheil Saakashvili has been agitating for a conflict with Russia for the better part of a year. On August 7th, the Georgians started something. The Georgian military invaded South Ossetia. The Russians responded by pushing the Georgians back out of South Ossetia. They are also (apparently) attacking Georgia proper.

Don’t get me wrong: I think that Putin is a thoroughly nasty piece of work. However, in this case I think that the Georgians are (largely) to blame for the ***** storm that is coming down upon them. There have been an endless string of Op-Ed features on the Wall Street Journal explaining how the West needs to get tough with the Russian. (Saakashvili had yet another one published there this morning) The Georgians have also been petitioning hard to join NATO. The Georgians made their bed. Now they get to lie in it.

BTW, it’s worth noting that McCain’s top foreign policy advisor was a registered lobbyist for the Republic of Georgia up until a few months ago.

[Al_U_Card]

I particularly like the sideline issue of Israel's "argument" between the Israeli Foreign and Defense ministries about their $500 mm arms sales to Georgia. They (defense) like the $$$ but they (foreign) don't want to piss off Russia who sells a shitload of arms to....Iran.

Its always all about the arms sales, isn't it....

When are ploughshare sales going to get going???

[kenberg]

Gerben42, on Aug 11 2008, 07:07 AM, said:

Is this what the future war-on-resources will look like?

Of course it is. Why on earth would you expect the future to be different from the past?


We will do nothing. Europe will do nothing. Goodbye Georgia.

[helene_t]

I doubt that Russia will occupy all of Georgia. Maybe they find an excuse to occupy an Eastern enclave, allowing them to control the oil pipeline.

[Gerben42]

Quote

Here in USA the big stories were an American Football player changing teams, and an American politician cheating on his wife.

I vaguely heard about the second non-story (like anyone cares except for his wife...), that's probably the worst part of it that no one cares.

Quote

The Georgian military invaded South Ossetia.

That's the point, isn't it? Does it count as an invasion even though it's technically part of Georgia? So they have been acting as independent province... But the other part is that Russia is for example blocking ports of Georgia that are nowhere near South Ossetia.

I'm not taking sides in this conflict, I just hope there will be peace again soon.

[mike777]

Gerben42, on Aug 11 2008, 09:40 AM, said:

Quote

Here in USA the big stories were an American Football player changing teams, and an American politician cheating on his wife.

I vaguely heard about the second non-story (like anyone cares except for his wife...), that's probably the worst part of it that no one cares.

Quote

The Georgian military invaded South Ossetia.

That's the point, isn't it? Does it count as an invasion even though it's technically part of Georgia? So they have been acting as independent province... But the other part is that Russia is for example blocking ports of Georgia that are nowhere near South Ossetia.

I'm not taking sides in this conflict, I just hope there will be peace again soon.

Well not taking sides is one thing to do.... You know more about this than most of us.

I assume most of the nonsports USA media will leave China now and go to this war area to better inform the American public.....Not sure how many American media reporters are there now. Alot seem to be following these Football, cheating politician stories.



We all hope for peace.


Peace may come with one side killing off alot of the other side off until one side gives up. In this case there may be 3 or 4 sides it seems: Georgia, Russia and various parts of what used to be called Georgia or Russia, whichever you prefer.

[jtfanclub]

I don't know what the hell's going on.

Accoring to the Georgians, the Ossetians were shelling Georgia for weeks prior to Georgia's attack, and that the cease fire was violated by more shelling. I don't have a clue whether it's true or not.

Nobody knows if Georgia is in Europe or Asia. Not even the Georgians.

I do know where the 2014 Olympics are, though. If you look for it on a map, you may notice something.

[Gerben42]

Quote

I do know where the 2014 Olympics are, though. If you look for it on a map, you may notice something.

Right, 30 (THIRTY) kilometers from the Georgian border.

[kenberg]

helene_t, on Aug 11 2008, 09:23 AM, said:

I doubt that Russia with occupy all of Georgia. Maybe they find an excuse to occupy an Eastern enclave, allowing them to control the oil pipeline.

This seems reasonable. As long as they control the oil I doubt they give much of a damn about the rest of the country. And I imagine the Georgian government can be brought around to seeing things in the Russian way way on policy matters. With a little gentle encouragement.

This all might give us pause. Georgia, with US support, was hoping to be in NATO somewhere down the road. I assume the obligation to go to war if a NATO country is attacked is still in force, at least on paper. I would be willing to wager a large sum of money that we (the US) will not be going to war over Georgia. We would go to war over, say, an attack on France or Poland. Maybe we need to think a little about what we are committing ourselves to before we bring more countries into NATO. It's not a social club.

[kenberg]

A brief word about the Asian/European question. It may depend on the professional orientation of the person making the call. Recently I was told that Mexico is part of Central America. Preposterous, i said. Just look at a map. And anyway, NAFTA is the North American Free Trade Agreement. But if you hunt around in the United Nations information you find that the UN thinks Mexico is part of Central America. Cultural ties, real or imagined, trumping geography I guess.

So: If memory serves, Stalin was born in Georgia. Looks more European than Asian to me. QED

[sceptic]

Just to help you all understand what is going on, the Russians suspected Georgia of having WMD, so quite justifiably they invaded, lets hope they don't screw things up as much as other seekers of WMD have done in the Past. another similarity (forgive me if I sound a bit sceptical here) does this producer of WMD have any oil?

[jdonn]

hrothgar, on Aug 11 2008, 07:58 AM, said:

Back in the 1990s Georgia seceded from the former Soviet Union. In turn, a couple of regions of Georgia – South Ossetia and Abkhazia - broke away from Georgia. In a not overly surprising move, the Russians backed these regions. De facto, they’ve been operating as independent for well over a decade.

Let’s move things forward to 2008. Mikheil Saakashvili has been agitating for a conflict with Russia for the better part of a year. On August 7th, the Georgians started something. The Georgian military invaded South Ossetia. The Russians responded by pushing the Georgians back out of South Ossetia. They are also (apparently) attacking Georgia proper.

So really, what business does Russia have jumping to the defense of this region other than sweet sweet revenge against Georgia for seceding in the first place?

[jtfanclub]

Well, most Ossetians are of Russian extraction, have Russian passports, and Russian families. Ossetia may not have officially rejoined Russia when they broke away from the Georgian Republic, but they may as well have.

I'd say those are pretty good reasons.

I'm curious to know what Turkey thinks about all this.

[matmat]

jdonn, on Aug 11 2008, 11:41 AM, said:

So really, what business does Russia have jumping to the defense of this region other than sweet sweet revenge against Georgia for seceding in the first place?

it's very touchy business. like it or not, ethnicity and national identity still form very strong bonds in certain parts of Europe. In this case the cover is that Russia feels that their brethren are being persecuted. Whether they'd act this way if the region were less economically strategic.

[kenberg]

sceptic, on Aug 11 2008, 11:35 AM, said:

Just to help you all understand what is going on, the Russians suspected Georgia of having WMD, so quite justifiably they invaded, lets hope they don't screw things up as much as other seekers of WMD have done in the Past. another similarity (forgive me if I sound a bit sceptical here) does this producer of WMD have any oil?

They have an oil pipeline. It supplies a good part of the needs of Europe I believe. However the real desire of the Russians is to bring Democracy and Freedom to the suffering Georgian people. And yes, it seems I have heard that one before, more locally.

[sceptic]

another interesting little snipet to consider, on one side someone wants to deploy loads of defence missiles, maybe Russia wants to show it is not scared of a little tussle and maybe it is a rather tactful warning to the world as all eyes are not too far away and maybe Russia wants to stomp on someone that has been a pain in its butt for some time